Forms & Fighting

[Kyle-san]

Hey everyone,

 

As a general rule I watch people do katas. You can tell how a person fights by watching kata, if they show alot of power and quickness they worry me a lot more than the graceful dancers.

 

Unless, of course, the point of the kata is grace over power.

[shotochem]

Let me rephrase it what I mean is that if you watch a person doing kata and their technique is weak looking, poor and sloppy they tend not to fight as well and vice versa.

 

Unless, of course, the point of the kata is grace over power.

 

Agreed.

 

There is definatly a difference between graceful and poor. If a technique looks like it cant possibly work, it probably wont. If you kick like a rockette.....you might as well do kata around the christmas tree

 

A technique should look like it has at the very least the possibility of causing some physical damage to an opponent.

[ramymensa]

Dancers are those who started karate only few months ago or who didn't have time to practice a lot (It's not a general rule, just an observation). After many many training sessions, dancers are able to add power and "spirit" and thus make their performance better. They can convince then

 

The higher ranks and BBs are even more proficient and they seem quite frightening They have everything, speed, power, determination, low stances, fluent moves and thus perform the forms (katas) like many mortals could only dream of doing

[AndrewGreen]

Kata are just a training tool, they help with balance, posture, body mechanics, etc. Thats it.

 

They won't teach you to spar, they won't teach you to fight, they are a poor way of learning technique application.

 

And now for the controversial part... Bunkai is NOT what makes a kata valuable, bunkai is not important to kata. What kata has to offer has nothing to do with applying the sequences in it. It has to do with the movements and postures involved.

 

If you understand locks, you'll see locks with no trouble.

 

If you understand throws, you'll see throws with no trouble.

 

If you understand strikes, you'll see strikes with no trouble.

 

I can even show ground work if I want to....

 

But its all silly, it misses the point, "looking" for kata application is meaningless. If you understand "strikes/throws/locks/etc." you will be able to see how kata movements are similar.

 

But to say this is contained in kata is not right. You can say the motions of this are similar to the motions found here in kata. There is a BIG difference.

 

So while I can say the motions this armlock from a guard position is similar to the motions in this kata, thats fine.

 

Saying this armlock from guard is found in this kata is wrong.

 

Same for everything else.

[shotochem]

 

Bunkai is NOT what makes a kata valuable, bunkai is not important to kata. What kata has to offer has nothing to do with applying the sequences in it. It has to do with the movements and postures involved.

 

But its all silly, it misses the point, "looking" for kata application is meaningless. If you understand "strikes/throws/locks/etc." you will be able to see how kata movements are similar.

 

similar to the motions in this kata, thats fine..

 

I disagree, IMO kata and bunkai are very important. They offer an excellwt way to work on your technique as well as applications. Not everyone understands how to apply a technique or which one in a given situation. Kata are just a way to practice and inspire creativity. The more advanced and creative the person the more they will see. It is also a good way to visualize what will work for the individual as no two people are the same.

 

If you do not see any merit in them that is your choice as to do them or not. I personally find them helpful and sometimes quite enjoyable.

[Tobias_Reece]

In the left corner...Shotochem, G95Champ, Ramymensa and Tobias_Reece.

 

In the right corner...Andrew Green

 

(Sorry all, but once again after been morally and physically outraged by the ignorance of Andrew, thast all I can manage )

[Kyle-san]

Green- Different Kata have different applications depending on what moves are being used. For example, I just learned "Monkey Form I" in my Wing Chun class. It involved a lot of low stances and moves that I probably would never touch going into a sparring/fight situation. However, the point of the kata was to develop my stances and the strength of my legs. Not everything is 100% applicable and by simply "knowing" something, doesn't mean you'll be able to pull it off properly. That's where kata comes in.

[AndrewGreen]

 

If you do not see any merit in them that is your choice as to do them or not. I personally find them helpful and sometimes quite enjoyable.

 

I never said they are of no merit, I said that bunkai is not what gives kata any merit.

 

If you want to learn locking, learn locking, then you will see it in kata.

 

Same for any skill, even ones that you can be pretty sure where not seen by the author. Kata are a drill which can help with the game, but they can't teach you the game.

 

Now a few years back I would have agreed with you, I bunkai-ed kata to death, and found all sorts of things that where useful. But it just got silly. I could find pretty much anything in a kata, even things that I was pretty sure the creator wouldn't have known.

 

their are certain movements and postures that the human body is strong at, kata helps you learn to move in a structurally strong way, thats what it does.

[AndrewGreen]

(Sorry all, but once again after been morally and physically outraged by the ignorance of Andrew, thast all I can manage )

 

Thats ok, I seem to offend a lot of shoto-folk. Doesn't seem to bother people of other styles as much though. You guys must know something the rest of us don't.

 

Kyel-san:

 

" However, the point of the kata was to develop my stances and the strength of my legs. Not everything is 100% applicable "

 

I think we agree for the most part. What is the purpose of Sil lim tao? Most seem to say develop structure. Karate kata are the same. But some think that they should be applied exactly as is, and that is the goal behind them.

[Tobias_Reece]

Thats ok, I seem to offend a lot of shoto-folk. Doesn't seem to bother people of other styles as much though. You guys must know something the rest of us don't.

 

Yup, we do...........or maybe not.........oh well, just look at my signature quote...........

If you do not see any merit in them that is your choice as to do them or not. I personally find them helpful and sometimes quite enjoyable.

 

^I think that somes it all up

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Once again