Punchdrunk Posted November 10, 2002 Posted November 10, 2002 It is really popular lately to bash kata and other forms as being useless in relation to actual fighting ability or real combat skills. It's not hard to follow the argument, most popular in grappling and MMA circles, that forms are just anachronistic dances. However, I have noticed that in our dojo, where kata is not as emphasised (it isn't planned that way it's just how it seems to work out) as kumite, most of the best fighters are also very proficient in kata. Have you noticed in your schools & gyms that your best fighters also excel at forms? One cannot choose to be passive without the option to be aggressive.
karatekid1975 Posted November 10, 2002 Posted November 10, 2002 I've heard that who ever is good at sparring isn't good at forms, and who ever is good at forms isn't good st sparring (I'm one of them .... I'm good at forms). But if you learn the applications (bunkai in Japanese) of the forms, I believe, is the key to self defense. There's a lot of good defensive (or offensive) moves in forms. You just have to "dig" into the forms for the real good stuff. I have gotten a lot better at sparring because I "dig" into forms. Ask questions and practice the moves. You'll see Laurie F
ramymensa Posted November 16, 2002 Posted November 16, 2002 I hope I can help a little here, as I practice Shotkan. Forms. or katas are fights with an imaginary opponent, while kumite or sparring is done with a real one. Kata is a sequence of blocks and attack put together in order to face an enemy. Funakoshi, the guy that put Shotokan all together used to teach his students ONLY by means of kata, so I guess he knew what he has doing. The problem with katas is that they seem like a useless dance. Now it comes the bunkai, the applications. You learn why you move this way and not the other and so on ... and after learning this, kata becomes OK, and it has a meaning Practising katas is DIFFICULT. It looks like anybody can do this, but it's really hard. You can perform a kata in a few minutes after learning the sequence of moves, but it take thousands of repetitons in order to have something that looks like a real kata A person who is able to move quick, powerful and correctly in this "dance" would do OK in sparring too. In karate there's a saying: "Low stances for beginners, natural stance for advanced." In kata you have those rigid and even exagerated moves that make Shotokan dreaded by some, but after being able to move very quick in those uncomfortable stances, moving in a normal one would be a breeze And for those who think we are wasting our time with katas ... We are sparring like all the others At least in my dojo ... After doing the forms and kihon we are able to move better, deliver more powerful blows and ... another thing we have imagination, because of katas. They have a lot of techniques and after moving from an impossible stance to another it's easy to figure a good attack. And it's true. A very good kata practitiner would be good at sparring too, the "theory" won't work vice-versa At many dojos katas are left alone for the sake of kumite or kumite is not as important for them thus they practice only kata. In many instructors opinion, it's best to have both of them. A rounded karateka must be good in kata as well as in kumite. Sorry for the long post ... World Shotokan Karate
G95champ Posted November 16, 2002 Posted November 16, 2002 I would not say all good fighters are good at kata but you can pretty much say a person good at kata is a pretty good fighter. (General George S. Patton Jr.) "It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that ensures victory."
Ironberg Posted November 18, 2002 Posted November 18, 2002 Many people at my martial arts school have mixed feelings about the nature of sparring/kata. For most people, they are good at one and not the other. The few females we have are always good at kata and not sparring- they need to be far more aggressive. For most of us, kata is simply an art form that doesn't necessarily help you as a fighter, but makes you more coordinated. However, I am a believer that a good kata can make good technique, especially if the kata is rather advanced and requires alot of power, flexibility, or if you are applying instant speed with a momentary snap (I can punch so hard that my gi makes a sharp noise in the air). However, good technique can only be made useful if you have proper timing, focus, and endurance. That is why sparring holds an ultra important purpose in my martial arts mindset. This shadows ramymensa's in a sort of moderate way, simply because I believe that a person can be a good sparring partner without being good at kata. I am reminded of my last tournament when the older men did poorly at kata. Since one of them was a former boxer, I made him laugh saying: "I'm sure Mike Tyson would get fourth place in kata as well." Then these people I train with who did horribly in forms did excellent in sparring and took out high ranks in their divisions. This is simply my observation of kata/sparring, and I am sure will be maturing more rapidly in the distant future as I get higher in rank. I realize I almost counterdicted myself, because there are a few select people at my school who are very proficient at both, including myself. Sorry about this sizeable post. "An enlightened man would offer a weary traveler a bed for the night, and invite him to share a civilized conversation over a bowl of... Cocoa Puffs."
ramymensa Posted November 18, 2002 Posted November 18, 2002 Amen, ramymensa. Great post 10x ... my fingers bled and I almost fell asleep on the keyboard. Guess you too World Shotokan Karate
shotochem Posted November 19, 2002 Posted November 19, 2002 Hey everyone, As a general rule I watch people do katas. You can tell how a person fights by watching kata, if they show alot of power and quickness they worry me a lot more than the graceful dancers. You tend to be a little more wary of the ones that hit harder than the ones that look good. Then again there are exceptions to every rule . Pain is only temporary, the memory of that pain lasts a lifetime.
G95champ Posted November 19, 2002 Posted November 19, 2002 Can't judge a book by its cover....Can't judge a book by its cover.... (General George S. Patton Jr.) "It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that ensures victory."
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