That is not martial arts!

[Zaine]

There is someone always looking for something beyond what we have here. For a lot of people, martial arts is where they go because it represents something more than just a defense system in their minds. As long as there are people looking for this, places like this will exist. Some will be great, teaching spirituality and martial arts side by side in perfect harmony. Some (maybe most) will be there to be prey on those who are desperate to know that there is some power outside themselves.

For my part, I don't mind a little spirituality in the dojo. All I ask is that it is part of the tradition. Having someone open a school to simply create a cult-like setting seems predatory. I don't care what level of xyz they are, or how much money I could attain by planting my seed within your organization; I care that they are preying on those who are at a low point in their lives. It really irks me. However, like I said, I am okay with places like this existing if they are legit. There exists martial arts whose curriculum involve a spiritual path that helps its practitioners grow and do great things.

[Spartacus Maximus]

For modesty's sake and reasons of privacy I avoid naming my instructors. For reference though, all of them were trained as lifelong students of Chibana Chosin's most senior students.

I met many instructors with a very wide variety of backgrounds and never at any time did any of these martial artists present what they taught and practised as something mysterious, mystical or spiritual. It was always directly to the point.

[JR 137]

I've also seen this sort of things in dojos across the nation. From budda statues in shrines, to crosses hanging on the wall.

I've been asked many times by people that they would love to take karate, but can't because they're Christians and won't pray to budda

One of my instructor's instructors is a certified Protestant minister. I'm talking traditional US Southern Protestant (not sure which denomination). He has no problem training karate because we don't do it in a spiritual way, but when he's visited us I have heard him describe moves to the young beginners in terms of "God created man with a soft spot right here-- if you target that soft spot, it can help you defend yourself". I remember it because I thought it was odd in our New England secular dojo, but from what I remember about attending college down south, infusing religion into every day life is just what they do as part of the culture. It doesn't take people aback nearly as much as it does up here. Different cultures treat it differently.

I friend of mine lived in Louisiana while her husband was stationed there. In rural Louisiana, not New Orleans or the like. She wanted to teach yoga, but couldn't get many students. Most people who were interested said they had to ask their minister/pastor first. He didn't give them permission, saying the teachings of yoga conflict with the bible.

It didn't matter that they knew she's Catholic, or that she told them all they're basically doing is stretching and breathing.

People have their beliefs and values. And apparently a lot of people can't think for themselves.

[Kusotare]

After visiting and observing most martial arts schools in my area, I realized that a majority of these seem to be heavily steeped in New Age or esoteric theory. The worst ones were almost cult-like in the way they taught and practised. The general impression is that the martial arts are some sort of marginal cult with weird rituals. Even acquaintances who were more or less familiar with martial arts seemed to think that.

The biggest issue with this and what was really shocking and disturbing to me, was the fact that I could not recognize what I saw as martial arts. Practicionners were way too preoccupied with whatever spiritual doctrine the school taught. The physical aspect and actual purpose to the movements was almost downplayed.

This is very strange and foreign to me and nothing like the martial arts I observed in Okinawa, Japan and China. Martial arts are a physical discipline and were never intended to be a belief system or religion. It seemed to surprise many that these two things (MA and spirituality/religion) are not the same and are mutually exclusive.

This made me rethink my plan to start teaching and served as proof that there is much work to do to restore the image of martial arts. The way it is taught and practised in that city probably makes many people very uncomfortable.

How common is this phenomenon in martial arts elsewhere? Any impressions or ideas to share? Has anyone ever had a similar experience?

The Spiritual side of things is very important to these guys...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorinji_Kempo

Religion / spirituality WAS important to the Bushi of feudal Japan (much as it was to the crusading knights of the European middle ages).

Prior to each keiko, most traditional karate clubs will perform "za-rei" (kneeling bows).

This usually consists of a bow to the front, one to the instructor and one to the students.

This is almost certainly a throw back to the classical Japanese dojo where the showmen (forward) bow was typically performed to a kamidana (a miniature shrine that is used to house artefacts considered to embody spirits/gods).

In many gendai dojo, the Kamidana has been replaced with photos of founding masters etc.

Love it or loathe it, there is (or at least was) a spiritual connection within the traditional Japanese martial arts.

Trouble is - In the west, we don't really get it and as a result people make up stuff to look like they do.

K.

[JR 137]

People make stuff up because they don't understand why, or they try to be on another level with things, or they over-think what's going on.

I taught an intro to karate class in the physical education department at a college I worked at a while back. I explained the etiquette of bowing to them as follows...

Bowing is a traditional East Asian way of showing respect and greeting someone formally. Not much different than a handshake to us. Boxers touch gloves before they spar or fight, wrestlers shake hands; martial artists bow. Some athletes have a ritual of the sign of the cross, looking up to the sky and saying something, or other things before getting into the ring, going on the field, court, etc.; martial artists bow. It's just a sign of respect for what you're going to do; it puts you in a state of mind or focus, if you will. You're not "bowing down" to anyone or anything in a subservient way; you're showing respect in a different way. Respect is respect, the intent is the same; it's just shown in a different way than our society in general is accustomed to.

Looked at it that way, it's far less mystical IMO. Instead of of a "hey, what's going on?" or a hello/good evening, etc., its a bow and possibly Osu (depending on your school). Walking into the dojo and bowing and saying Osu to your Sensei, seniors and classmates isn't much different than walking into practice and saying hi to your coaches and teammates. Or saying good morning to your co-workers. It's just a different way.

[sensei8]

Label it as one might choose to!!

All I can say, and all that I know, our Soke and Dai-Soke were products of Okinawa, having been born and raised there. I'd say that they both were just being themselves, and if religion was what they practiced while practicing Shindokan, therefore, they were just being themselves.

As their student, I suspected that they both were quite serious about everything that they did, and this included religion as well as the MA/Shindokan.

They did their things, and lead those things on the floor, but not in a forced way, and we students, just followed their lead because that's all we knew to do. However, I refused to follow some of their leads, especially when it came to one Rei practice.

I've one Lord, Jesus, and the Bible says that I shall have no other Gods. I'd politely not bow at certain times while on the floor...Kamiza Ni Rei...I'd refuse to bow, staying silent and still. Other students would follow their lead in this practice, but not me, this was not to disrespect them two, but to honor my Christian beliefs.

However, I'd follow the lead of Kamiza ni rei when I was a child, but as I grew older, perhaps when I was about 11 or 12, my Christian belief wouldn't allow me to partake of their ritual. Did I disrespect their beliefs? Yes! And, I've never apologized to them for that because they NEVER FORCED their beliefs on anybody. But as I understood, my loyalty was to Him, Christ, and only Him, without reservation or ambiguity.

I've no problem with:

Shomen ni rei [bow to Shomen/Front...this is where the Kun and assortment of flags are located]

Sensei ni rei [bow to Sensei]

Otagai ni rei [bow to the others]

I treat the bow as a cultural thing, a harmless thing, and I've been taught that the bow is due because shaking hands is considered unclean due to the hand being soiled and therefore, dirty, hereto, the bow. We don't shake hands in the dojo, we simply bow.

I've only hung up one picture of the Master at my dojo, and they weren't Him!!

[Spartacus Maximus]

Sensei8 is correct about people assigning labels. It sounds very much like what I observed. At their core, there is really nothing more simple than martial arts.

Yet some instructors make it seem like there is something mysterious because they themselves misunderstand certain concepts which are foreign to begin with; and were probably taught to them by instructors who knew no more than they did.

Theoretically it is entirely possible to teach karate(or any other MA)with a Western philosophy, and explain concepts and mechanics in English scientific terms(physics, anatomy etc). Then again it all sounds much more impressive if everything is wrapped in a cloak of mysterious mystic sounding Japanese.

[bushido_man96]

Yet some instructors make it seem like there is something mysterious because they themselves misunderstand certain concepts which are foreign to begin with; and were probably taught to them by instructors who knew no more than they did.

This sounds like the bulk of the issue, to me. Someone got into the MAs because of the philosophy and "mysticism" behind it, and as they went along, they got more into it, and felt like that was the main driving force behind the philosophy. Some people tend to go overboard with it.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Indeed that is what I also think in the case of most of them. It also reasonable to assume that these dojo and instructors are following that trend in attempt to profit from it and attract more people. Unfortunately for them, it also turns off those who showed up to learn a martial art and end up in a lecture about spirituality at best and a pseudo-cult at worst. It also does a great disservice to the already distorted image of martial arts.

What is an instructor to do to keep from being affected by this troubling trend? Is there no way to remain unaffected by it?

[JR 137]

Indeed that is what I also think in the case of most of them. It also reasonable to assume that these dojo and instructors are following that trend in attempt to profit from it and attract more people. Unfortunately for them, it also turns off those who showed up to learn a martial art and end up in a lecture about spirituality at best and a pseudo-cult at worst. It also does a great disservice to the already distorted image of martial arts.

What is an instructor to do to keep from being affected by this troubling trend? Is there no way to remain unaffected by it?

How big is this trend? Clowns come and go. Real MA has been around since the beginning. There are a lot of stupid people out there, but fortunately the stupid aren't the majority*

*Then again, I guess it's all relative. Everyone's stupid when it comes some things.