Karate - The Original MMA

[Montana]

http://www.karatebyjesse.com/why-karate-is-broken/

This link is to an article that is a good addition to this discussion for those of you who haven't read it.

NICE! This goes along with what my various sensei's have taught me since day 1 of my training. True karate still exists, but you won't find much of it in big, fancy commercial dojos will wall to wall mirrors and weight machines. Nor is it found very often outside (oftentimes INSIDE) Okinawa..but if you look hard enough, dig and research your local dojos..you just MIGHT be lucky enough to find the real deal out there, instead of a water down version, of karate.

[wildbourgman]

I've probably posted this story a few times, but for those whom haven't read it here goes.

I went to my first karate camp after many years of being out of training. I trained Japanese Karate as a kid and got back into it much later in life. When I started really talking to a lot of the folks at the camp many of them were dissatisfied with the direction of "karate". Some of the older and many of the younger students were talking about cross training and some were cross training in other grappling arts.

One middle aged man said "man punching and kicking gets old".

I went to three more camps in the next year and heard the same, and then I actually heard a shocking inter-session question and answer period break out into older instructors complaining about losing students to various MMA clubs. They were not complaining to just anyone, they were talking to one of the highest ranking and legendary instructors of this system. I was shocked.

Now, I wasn't shocked at the truth that was being told, because I'd heard it before. I was shocked that they brought it out in the way that they did and in that forum. I had read many of the things that Jesse talks about in the article I posted, my Shorin Ryu instructor and I have talked about much of the same and I started thinking that there could be a fix to Japanese Karate's problems.

Now for background when I was a kid the discussion I witnessed and any discussion about cross training would have been heretical. When I discussed some of the training I was doing with Okinawan karate I felt like I had to whisper.

I actually gave one comment about my feelings during the discussion and one of the instructors that was asking how do we fix this problem didn't like my answer. "He said what are you saying we should water down this system". My reply was that it was already watered down many years ago.

Now the funny thing is that the legendary instructor just smiled and listened to the debate and then he broke into a story about (cross) training with Hironori Ōtsuka the Wado Ryu founder. It was strange, because the story seemed to go way off topic, but that was at least the third story that this instructor told about Hironori Ōtsuka during that three day camp. I also found that strange because I hadn't heard him tell those stories in the other camps.

I don't think many of the people listening to the discussion took away from that response that I did, but it seemed to me that this somewhat elderly legend gave us the answer it wasn't senility. Yes karate had changed over the years, yes some other styles have aspects of what was left behind and it's karate not religion. You can treat it like a buffet to some extent. Even he had cross trained with someone from another system just as was done in Okinawa before there were real defined systems.

Now back to what Jesse wrote, I think that many of the styles (especially Japanese styles) that spend most of time training in striking can go back and look at the past and find the answer to their problems. If attendance is a problem, if marketing and finances are a problem, if you as a practitioner getting burned out is a problem read the history and find the roots of your system. Karate was and is the original MMA!

[sensei8]

http://www.karatebyjesse.com/why-karate-is-broken/

This link is to an article that is a good addition to this discussion for those of you who haven't read it.

For the most part, I do enjoy reading Jesse's articles!

This is why many Karate practitioners lack the ability to handle real-world situations.

~karatebyjesse

Imho...

Karate's not broken! It's the practitioner that's broken!

The quote above is quite assumptive of Jesse because what's truly lacking is his belief in his fellow karateka's. He supports his statement by using the word..."many". That word offends is quite cold to me!

I'm a karateka, and Jesse doesn't know me, nor does he know many karateka's because the MA world is comprised of A LOT of "Karate practitioners", therefore, imho, his judgment is unwarranted, thusly, unfair.

Unfair to the "many Karate practitioners", of which I am a part of, of which you are part of. No, Jesse didn't say, "all". However, "many" could be Jesse's way of saying "all" in a nice and clever way!!

[The Pred]

In my opinion, the reason we do not see a lot of Karate users in MMA. Is because most karate moves would be considered illegal in a MMA fight. Moves such as a shuto strike to the throat would be for starters.

[sensei8]

In my opinion, the reason we do not see a lot of Karate users in MMA. Is because most karate moves would be considered illegal in a MMA fight. Moves such as a shuto strike to the throat would be for starters.

Solid post!!

[wildbourgman]

In my opinion, the reason we do not see a lot of Karate users in MMA. Is because most karate moves would be considered illegal in a MMA fight. Moves such as a shuto strike to the throat would be for starters.

I think that many karate practitioners just aren't interested in actually taking part in these type of full contact combat sports. Many of us have a million reasons why we won't or can't.

Now in the context of this thread I think MMA means that karate is mixed. It's not just striking and blocking. It's also throws, grappling, joint locks, escapes, and various other forms of fighting that it's currently not known for anymore.

The video clip is showing people performing in MMA using moves that are used in karate. The human body can only do so much, so it's no surprise that people who practice hand to hand combat eventually use similar techniques regardless of what type of training they have.

Back to your point, if I remember right the Gracie fellow that helped start the UFC was very upset when the UFC had to start banning some moves in order to not be outlawed. One of my favorite equalizers is small joint locks (fingers, wrist), I don't think all of that is allowed in UFC anymore.

[Spartacus Maximus]

MMA is made for the ring, octogon or cage . karate was not ever intended for, nor devised for competing. Over the years it was eventually developed into a sport, but even the sport version is of a completely different category from MMA.

It has been forced and bent into something it was never meant for, Like a square peg in a round hole. Karate is, in its simplest root form, devised for physical defense against violent thugs who are bigger and stronger than oneself nothing more.

That's why karateka are not in MMA events. It is also why one will not see commando fighters doing MMA either. Different purpose, different training goals unsuitable for the cage/ring/octagon or stage.

[wildbourgman]

Personally, I don't want to forget the spirit of how this thread was started.

Karate in it's beginning is a mixed martial art, not to be confused with MMA the sport.

I totally agree with Spartacus on many of those points he made. Although I do wonder how an extremely well trained karateka with all the tools and techniques that some styles teach (except weapons of coarse) would do in a no holds barred contest against a UFC star.

[The Pred]

MMA is made for the ring, octogon or cage . karate was not ever intended for, nor devised for competing. Over the years it was eventually developed into a sport, but even the sport version is of a completely different category from MMA.

It has been forced and bent into something it was never meant for, Like a square peg in a round hole. Karate is, in its simplest root form, devised for physical defense against violent thugs who are bigger and stronger than oneself nothing more.

That's why karateka are not in MMA events. It is also why one will not see commando fighters doing MMA either. Different purpose, different training goals unsuitable for the cage/ring/octagon or stage.

I like the comparison of a square peg in a round hole, never thought of it like that.

[lowereastside]

MMA - is not something new - the Romans - the Greeks and other counties including Asia did MMA - however back in the day it was for keeps/staying alive - surviving. And now its kinda come full circle. And look at it this way we have 2 arms - 2 legs - 1 head. How many ways can we move. A quick story I'm teaching 2 students who are high level in karate. I'm going over some breakdowns from the Mantis form i'm teaching them. One of them says " we have this move in Sanchin Kata and we have this move in Seisan Kata." And I reply your right - now whats the difference between you and me? I told him to think about it. If you look at MMA - its based on some form of grappling and striking that most of us have been exposed to. The major difference is the training and conditioning that they do - which is heavy duty. You must not only be able to give out punishment but must condition yourself to take punishment. This year I'm 62 years old - I have NO fantasies about taking my high level Praying Mantis style of Kung Fu - getting into the ring and be victorious against a well trained MMA fighter who is 30 years younger.