TKD feds

[Judodad_karateson]

I'm considering TKD. As the main reason for this is for sport, can someone advise me the best ways to kind of good sports centric school. The MA market is saturated with TKD, and for someone with 0 experience in Korean arts, I have no idea what to look for. What Federations/leagues/organizations are the most trusted? Which are shady? Every school has a trophy case, how do I know which ones have truly earned it?

[bushido_man96]

Not all TKD schools are sports-centered. You can find some really good ones out there that aren't centered on competing, if you know what you're looking for.

If you are looking for competition, though, then looking in the realms of the WTF and ITF sanctioned schools would be a good start. The ATA also has its own tournament circuit and yearly World Championships competition, but not everyone likes the idea of going with the ATA.

If you're looking at the Olympic style sparring methods, go with a World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) sanctioned school. The International TKD Federation has a different sparring setup, but still a very competitive tournament scene.

[Judodad_karateson]

Thanks! Very informative!

If you are looking for competition, though, then looking in the realms of the WTF and ITF sanctioned schools would be a good start. The ATA also has its own tournament circuit and yearly World Championships competition, but not everyone likes the idea of going with the ATA.

I think the largest schools around here are ATA. What do people not like about them?

If you're looking at the Olympic style sparring methods, go with a World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) sanctioned school. The International TKD Federation has a different sparring setup, but still a very competitive tournament scene.

Could you elaborate? How is Olympic different from ITKDF sparring? I know TKD is big on kicks, does one have more hand work?

[DWx]

The style you choose will in part be dictated by what's available to you. So what's in your local area?

Also Brian is right when he says not all schools are the same. Whether a school will be sporty or not will depend on the instructor and individual school ethos.

In general though, for tournaments, I'd stick with the larger organisations: ITF, WTF, ATA...

The major difference between ITF and WTF is in the sparring rules. They're about as different as Shotokan is from Kyokushin. In ITF punching is more prevalent and head punches are scored, I'm WTF kicking plays a greater role.

YouTube is a great resource for seeing the major differences and gaining a brief overview but you'll gain more by going to watch a few classes of each.

WTF:

ITF:

ATA:

[bushido_man96]

Danielle has put up some great examples there. I like the ITF style of sparring, and it reminds me a lot of ATA style sparring, but allowing head punches (the ATA does not). However, I don't like the ITF's method of doing forms, but that is a personal preference.

I like the thought behind Olympic sparring, but I think they've gotten carried away with it, and have allowed it to get a bit too sloppy. I don't think a fighter should be scoring a point when he's looking up after falling down with a technique. There can be some exceptions to this, but often, it shouldn't be the case.

The ATA team competitions are new to me. Very cool. A lot of people don't like the ATA because they view them as a McDojo.

[sensei8]

Danielle has put up some great examples there. I like the ITF style of sparring, and it reminds me a lot of ATA style sparring, but allowing head punches (the ATA does not). However, I don't like the ITF's method of doing forms, but that is a personal preference.

I like the thought behind Olympic sparring, but I think they've gotten carried away with it, and have allowed it to get a bit too sloppy. I don't think a fighter should be scoring a point when he's looking up after falling down with a technique. There can be some exceptions to this, but often, it shouldn't be the case.

The ATA team competitions are new to me. Very cool. A lot of people don't like the ATA because they view them as a McDojo.

To the bold type above...

I don't view the ATA as a McDojo. I'm not too understanding as to the methodology/ideology of ATA when it comes to their forms/[Kata], with the dramatic lack of applications as well as the long drawn out as one climbs up the ATA ranks...a 8th Dan form in length is akin to the length of, let's say, the novel, War and Peace, just as long as their forms ALL form the Songham star, or whatever they call it, is fine for them.

::taking a very deep breath::

I'll go back to my corner; sorry!!

[IcemanSK]

The subject of TKD organizations/styles is quite a Pandora's Box. Depending on where you live, you may have access to many or few choices of styles. Here in the Los Angeles area, Kukkiwon (WTF-style) dojang & ATA dojang are ever-present. ITF, for some reason, are few & far between. Just a note: Kukkiwon is the part of the organization that WTF (olympic Taekwondo fighting) gets their black belt rank. Kukkiwon focuses on technique, & WTF focuses on the sport of Olympic fighting. One can be a Kukkiwon school & not be interested or focused on Olympic fighting, but every WTF fighter in the Olympics has a Kukkiwon black belt.

I've trained in TKD for over 30 years. During that time, I've trained in Kukkiwon for most of that time. I trained in ITF TKD for about 8 of those years. My only ATA experience is attending an ATA black belt test.

If I were to quickly break down the difference between ITF & WTF sparring, it would be the difference between speed & flexibility for WTF sparring, & power & combinations for ITF. ITF sparring is more akin to the old PKA full-contact kickboxing than WTF sparring is. One can find Kukkiwon schools that do more like Karate point-sparring than WTF sparring.

In terms of the question the OP asked about legitimate trophies earned; trophies are often rewarded for different reasons today than they were in years past. In the past, one would win a trophy for placing in a tournament. Today, big trophies are usually given for the schools who brought the most number of students to a particular tournament. Medals are usually awarded for placing a tournament in WTF tournaments today.

I hope that gives you a helpful perspective. Let me know if you are interested in some specific info.

[bushido_man96]

Danielle has put up some great examples there. I like the ITF style of sparring, and it reminds me a lot of ATA style sparring, but allowing head punches (the ATA does not). However, I don't like the ITF's method of doing forms, but that is a personal preference.

I like the thought behind Olympic sparring, but I think they've gotten carried away with it, and have allowed it to get a bit too sloppy. I don't think a fighter should be scoring a point when he's looking up after falling down with a technique. There can be some exceptions to this, but often, it shouldn't be the case.

The ATA team competitions are new to me. Very cool. A lot of people don't like the ATA because they view them as a McDojo.

To the bold type above...

I don't view the ATA as a McDojo. I'm not too understanding as to the methodology/ideology of ATA when it comes to their forms/[Kata], with the dramatic lack of applications as well as the long drawn out as one climbs up the ATA ranks...a 8th Dan form in length is akin to the length of, let's say, the novel, War and Peace, just as long as their forms ALL form the Songham star, or whatever they call it, is fine for them.

::taking a very deep breath::

I'll go back to my corner; sorry!!

Bob, I can shed some light on the theory behind the ATA forms. When GM Lee first started making his ATA forms, he had some goals in mind. When he learned the older forms (the ITF forms, I believe), he learned most of them in a period of a few weeks time, and he felt that a form should be a bit more involved than that, and that the complexity of the form should go up as a student goes up in rank. So, in the ATA forms, you see the complexity and difficulty level go up with each form.

GM Lee also felt that if TKD was trying to become a style that emphasized kicking, then the forms should also reflect that, so he designed his forms with more kicking, ranging from kicking combinations and high kicking.

The ATA curriculum is also laid out for each rank, with each rank having a different set of hand techniques, kicking techniques, blocking techniques, etc, and the forms are a reflection of this. A white belt learns low block, inner forearm block, high block, front kick, side kick, reverse punch and lunge punch, knife hand strike, front stance, and middle stance. So in the form, you see these techniques. At orange belt, they add round kicks, back stance, double forearm blocks, back fist strike, etc. You see these techniques reflected in orange belt form.

In the TKD Forms, A Running Comparison thread, you can watch the ATA forms and see this in motion: http://www.karateforums.com/tkd-forms-a-running-comparison-vt47646.html

Hope that clears that up a little, Bob.

[Judodad_karateson]

Interesting input, guys, very insightful.

Can I compete in ITF, WTF, and ATA tournaments if my school isn't a part of their group? What are the chances of a school that doesn't list membership in one of these groups still regularly attend their tournaments?

Also, how good is tkd for engaging the kids? I know TKD and karate are similar in many ways, but my 5yo is bored with karate. Do you think tkd could liven things up for him?

[IcemanSK]

Interesting input, guys, very insightful.

Can I compete in ITF, WTF, and ATA tournaments if my school isn't a part of their group? What are the chances of a school that doesn't list membership in one of these groups still regularly attend their tournaments?

Also, how good is tkd for engaging the kids? I know TKD and karate are similar in many ways, but my 5yo is bored with karate. Do you think tkd could liven things up for him?

It all depends on the instructor, honestly. For kids especially, Karate & Taekwondo are so similar as Arts, that point isn't going to matter. Some TKD schools LOVE teaching kids, as do some Karate schools. Some instructors are only vaguely interested in teaching children. As far as an ITF person attending an ATA tournament, that probably won't happen for several reasons. Lack of interest in seeing what the other side of the fence looks like is the biggest. There are many WTF (Kukkiwon) schools that don't participate in tournaments. I'm sure there are ATA & ITF-style schools that don't either.