Being taught Kata...But not the Bunkai?

[tallgeese]

It's very common and you see it in a lot of schools.

This is one of those things that always made it hard for me to get behind the kata methodology. There's this perennial argument in traditional circles as to wether bunkai is a process you should self discover for or a set of specific applications. Both sides have strong lineages in favor of their argument and solid arguments.

For me, the forms on the Filipino side of the house are easier to understand. Here's the form. Here's what the cuts are and what the movements mean. There is no guessing. You learn the pattern. The pattern means X. No interoperation, no guessing, no sorting it out. Now, apply the very same tactics in flow by adding the rules of timing, distance, etc. It's a much more systematized approach to forms.

Please note, I'm not saying it's bad. Just that the convoluted learning process just does not fit my needs. I get grief often now for doing FMA forms from my trad friends given my stance on kata over the years. I come back with the the methodology in which it's taught.

If you can find that school, or if your school gets you there at a certain point, then you're far better off IF that's a way you like to learn.

[armanox]

It's very common and you see it in a lot of schools.

This is one of those things that always made it hard for me to get behind the kata methodology. There's this perennial argument in traditional circles as to wether bunkai is a process you should self discover for or a set of specific applications. Both sides have strong lineages in favor of their argument and solid arguments.

Why not both? We have a set of 'official' bunkai for all of our kata, but they are by no means meant to be the only use of them.

[GojuRyu Bahrain]

If Kata is a cookbook then fighting (for self defense) is eating. The process of learning to cook is Bunkai.

Some people read the content, learn about the ingredients and the process of preparing it all. Some people think that Bunkai is studying the book itself, the cover, paper, and the glue binding it together. Others spend time on studying the grammar of the recipes, the fonts, and the punctuation. Again, others like collecting cookbooks. However, only reading, understanding, and actually cooking according to the recipe results in the desired meal.

Once a recipe is learned by heart it can be varied, applied with different ingredients etc.. Shu Ha Ri.

[armanox]

If Kata is a cookbook then fighting (for self defense) is eating. The process of learning to cook is Bunkai.

Some people read the content, learn about the ingredients and the process of preparing it all. Some people think that Bunkai is studying the book itself, the cover, paper, and the glue binding it together. Others spend time on studying the grammar of the recipes, the fonts, and the punctuation. Again, others like collecting cookbooks. However, only reading, understanding, and actually cooking according to the recipe results in the desired meal.

Once a recipe is learned by heart it can be varied, applied with different ingredients etc.. Shu Ha Ri.

I like it!

[DaveB]

It makes much more sense to teach both instead of waiting until a random arbitrary level. Learning the sequence and choreography of numerous kata without any idea of how the techniques work is like learning a dance.

If one knows exactly what each move is meant to be, it gives the necessary understanding required to correctly learn how to use the techniques. That is the first step in developing skill with it. Otherwise one remains stuck at the outer form with a lifeless shell and a meaningless pantomime. Kata is dead. It must be brought to life and bunkai is the process by which it is brought to life.

Personally I feel it is better to teach movement and coordination before teaching and drilling fighting methods. There are a lot of people who have no body awareness and only experienced martial artists will have all the movement skills required to make effective use of the art.

Learning to channel your whole body into all your movements fluidly, quickly, powerfully and with complete adaptability is the most difficult part of martial arts and the longest to learn. Therefore we should start it before everything else.

I feel all MA skills should be trained intensively to achieve a good level before moving on and incorporating new skills.

[sensei8]

It's very common and you see it in a lot of schools.

This is one of those things that always made it hard for me to get behind the kata methodology. There's this perennial argument in traditional circles as to wether bunkai is a process you should self discover for or a set of specific applications. Both sides have strong lineages in favor of their argument and solid arguments.

Why not both? We have a set of 'official' bunkai for all of our kata, but they are by no means meant to be the only use of them.

Hence, Oyo!!

[sensei8]

If Kata is a cookbook then fighting (for self defense) is eating. The process of learning to cook is Bunkai.

Some people read the content, learn about the ingredients and the process of preparing it all. Some people think that Bunkai is studying the book itself, the cover, paper, and the glue binding it together. Others spend time on studying the grammar of the recipes, the fonts, and the punctuation. Again, others like collecting cookbooks. However, only reading, understanding, and actually cooking according to the recipe results in the desired meal.

Once a recipe is learned by heart it can be varied, applied with different ingredients etc.. Shu Ha Ri.

I like it!

Me too!!

[Hawkmoon]

If Kata is a cookbook then fighting (for self defense) is eating. The process of learning to cook is Bunkai.

Some people read the content, learn about the ingredients and the process of preparing it all. Some people think that Bunkai is studying the book itself, the cover, paper, and the glue binding it together. Others spend time on studying the grammar of the recipes, the fonts, and the punctuation. Again, others like collecting cookbooks. However, only reading, understanding, and actually cooking according to the recipe results in the desired meal.

Once a recipe is learned by heart it can be varied, applied with different ingredients etc.. Shu Ha Ri.

I like it!

Me too!!

Top post simple fantastic, truly is!

I cannot say enough in support of this simply amazing way to look at this topic and so perfectly ... perfect in its statement!

One of the bells that rings in my head when I read that post (and there are few flat notes to be sure in my head) is the last sentence:

"Once a recipe is learned by heart it can be varied, applied with different ingredients etc."

explore, experiment, test/try..its part of the fun!

[GojuRyu Bahrain]

Thanks for the nice feedback, but its not purely my idea...Iain Abernethy has some similar thoughts in his material.

[bushido_man96]

I've done forms in TKD for a lot of years that didn't have any applications for them. The ATA forms weren't designed with applications in mind like those seen from Karate kata. I've seen some application ideas for the ITF forms I do now, and have seen ideas for the Tae Guek and Pal Gwe forms. But these are rather recent innovations.

My concern with the whole thing is, why should I have to learn a form, then learn its applications, to learn self-defense? I'm a big proponent of getting into applications work as early as possible in training.