How can I respect your school?

[DaveB]

I'm as cynical as they come, but this is too little information to make judgements on the motivation of the teacher.

I voted yes, but it's not really my style to hold an absolute position on something like this.

My thinking was that this comes down to what rank really means. So long as they are not handing out instructor grades for kempo karate it doesn't really matter because a karate rank qualifies you for nothing of importance or value. It's not like you're going to let anyone with a purple belt fix your brakes or perform bypass surgery. They get to stand in a different place in the line and do slightly different combination drills. Sometimes.

That's not to say they aren't valuable to the holder, but then that's probably exactly why this was done: to avoid depriving people of something that they personally value.

The issue will be what those students are required to learn before they progress to the next rank. That will determine the standards of the teacher. Letting them hold a rank is just a friendly gesture.

After all, it may be that they are all higher standard than the kempo grade equivalent requires and pick up the syllabus in no time. What then? Is he a money grabber for promoting them quickly or a money grabber for holding them in their transfer grades for longer than needed because they didn't come up in the same system?

To me the latter is the far bigger crime.

[sensei8]

I'm as cynical as they come, but this is too little information to make judgements on the motivation of the teacher.

I voted yes, but it's not really my style to hold an absolute position on something like this.

My thinking was that this comes down to what rank really means. So long as they are not handing out instructor grades for kempo karate it doesn't really matter because a karate rank qualifies you for nothing of importance or value. It's not like you're going to let anyone with a purple belt fix your brakes or perform bypass surgery. They get to stand in a different place in the line and do slightly different combination drills. Sometimes.

That's not to say they aren't valuable to the holder, but then that's probably exactly why this was done: to avoid depriving people of something that they personally value.

The issue will be what those students are required to learn before they progress to the next rank. That will determine the standards of the teacher. Letting them hold a rank is just a friendly gesture.

After all, it may be that they are all higher standard than the kempo grade equivalent requires and pick up the syllabus in no time. What then? Is he a money grabber for promoting them quickly or a money grabber for holding them in their transfer grades for longer than needed because they didn't come up in the same system?

To me the latter is the far bigger crime.

Solid post; one I can easily respect!!

[bushido_man96]

So as the title states, how can I possibly respect this Kempo Karate School for coming in and allowing students to maintain same rank in a completely different system. Obviously there is no true martial art intent behind this and this is 100% business and money driven. How can I possibly respect it? You are going to have students whom claim a certain rank in kenpo and even after their first test may know some of the art, but to rank them in that art when they have not earned it in that Arts and they do not truly know that Arts to me seems absolutely ridiculous. Typically my judgement is not quite so harsh, in this case I just can't make myself okay with the idea, and although it does not affect me, because I came from that school I can't help but feel annoyed at such money driven agendas.

What are your guys thoughts on something like this? Love to hear some.

You can respect them. Did they work hard to earn their rank? Are they good students? Does the teacher do a good job? If so, you can respect them. You don't have to like this instructor's decision here, but that doesn't mean you can't respect the instructor or his students.

I'll just throw a few ideas out here to stimulate the conversation a little bit. I think the main reason the instructor is doing this is to retain students and keep his school open. Its a good strategy to keep the students that have already invested the time they have at the school, and it would hopefully prevent him from having to start over, which would be financially tough.

Here's another aspect to look at. He may allow them to keep their current rank, but that doesn't mean that he won't make them "catch up" to their current rank in his teaching material. It could be that he lets them retain their current rank, and recognize it, but will only grant them appropriate rank in his system as they accrue it.

Lastly, its a situation that looks hinky from the outside looking in, but do you know what his plans are, or just assume? If in doubt, heck, go talk to the guy, and determine his motivation if you really want to. But until you really know what he's about, what he's up to, and what his goals are, you really just end up making assumptions and judging him based on the assumptions you are making. When in doubt, try to gather as much information on a situation as possible and then make an informed decision. Jumping to conclusions is never helpful.

Now, I'm playing a bit of the devil's advocate here, and I admit that. But, what is known about the instructor? Maybe he's really good at what he does. Maybe he's not. Maybe it is just a business ploy, and he could be more businessman than Martial Artist. Who knows?

In the end, I wouldn't trouble yourself too much over circumstances you can't control. If the guy is a bad instructor, then things will probably rectify themselves after some time. Now, with all that said, you may still not respect the action he's taken. But, get to know the person more before passing a judgement of whether or not you can respect him. Who knows? You might end up making friends with a good instructor that could start the beginning of some interschool relationships, workouts, etc.

[Luther unleashed]

So as the title states, how can I possibly respect this Kempo Karate School for coming in and allowing students to maintain same rank in a completely different system. Obviously there is no true martial art intent behind this and this is 100% business and money driven. How can I possibly respect it? You are going to have students whom claim a certain rank in kenpo and even after their first test may know some of the art, but to rank them in that art when they have not earned it in that Arts and they do not truly know that Arts to me seems absolutely ridiculous. Typically my judgement is not quite so harsh, in this case I just can't make myself okay with the idea, and although it does not affect me, because I came from that school I can't help but feel annoyed at such money driven agendas.

What are your guys thoughts on something like this? Love to hear some.

You can respect them. Did they work hard to earn their rank? Are they good students? Does the teacher do a good job? If so, you can respect them. You don't have to like this instructor's decision here, but that doesn't mean you can't respect the instructor or his students.

I'll just throw a few ideas out here to stimulate the conversation a little bit. I think the main reason the instructor is doing this is to retain students and keep his school open. Its a good strategy to keep the students that have already invested the time they have at the school, and it would hopefully prevent him from having to start over, which would be financially tough.

Here's another aspect to look at. He may allow them to keep their current rank, but that doesn't mean that he won't make them "catch up" to their current rank in his teaching material. It could be that he lets them retain their current rank, and recognize it, but will only grant them appropriate rank in his system as they accrue it.

Lastly, its a situation that looks hinky from the outside looking in, but do you know what his plans are, or just assume? If in doubt, heck, go talk to the guy, and determine his motivation if you really want to. But until you really know what he's about, what he's up to, and what his goals are, you really just end up making assumptions and judging him based on the assumptions you are making. When in doubt, try to gather as much information on a situation as possible and then make an informed decision. Jumping to conclusions is never helpful.

Now, I'm playing a bit of the devil's advocate here, and I admit that. But, what is known about the instructor? Maybe he's really good at what he does. Maybe he's not. Maybe it is just a business ploy, and he could be more businessman than Martial Artist. Who knows?

In the end, I wouldn't trouble yourself too much over circumstances you can't control. If the guy is a bad instructor, then things will probably rectify themselves after some time. Now, with all that said, you may still not respect the action he's taken. But, get to know the person more before passing a judgement of whether or not you can respect him. Who knows? You might end up making friends with a good instructor that could start the beginning of some interschool relationships, workouts, etc.

Hey Brian, I wouldn't say I'm concerning myself with it really. I'm in no way associated with my old school anymore and I also do not even really communicate with them so it really makes no difference to me other than the fact that it is a shocking way of doing things. I think it's fair to say you don't know or I don't know who or none of us know the situation but in my mind I can't rationalize it with any explanation. This is just my opinion, if he was going to have them catch up then I think it should be similar to how JR 137 put it, he wrote about starting them at white belt and later on ranking them where they should be and I think that's more fair than to rank them at 1st degree black belt in Kempo when they've never trained Kempo a day in the life and are Korean martial arts is very different.

Like I said that's just my opinion, but I posted it here not because I was so concerned about it, but just because I was curious what other people thought. I find everybody's opinions interesting. I often disagree with what the general consensus seems to be about martial arts in particular, and I'm not one to really be considered a traditionalist although I teach traditional martial arts, it's just an interesting topic to me that's all.

Hope everything is good with you

[bushido_man96]

Thank you, Luther. I'm sorry if my post came across as though the situation was that personal to you. That wasn't my intention. I just wanted to put forward some thoughts on how to look at and approach the situation. It is definitely not a "traditional" way of doing things, that is for sure. I often think "tradition" becomes the hang-up with many Martial Artists, and it becomes difficult for them to see it any other way. I'm not saying its this way with you, though. But its something that pops up a lot.

Its one of those situations where rank doesn't matter, until it does.

[Luther unleashed]

Thank you, Luther. I'm sorry if my post came across as though the situation was that personal to you. That wasn't my intention. I just wanted to put forward some thoughts on how to look at and approach the situation. It is definitely not a "traditional" way of doing things, that is for sure. I often think "tradition" becomes the hang-up with many Martial Artists, and it becomes difficult for them to see it any other way. I'm not saying its this way with you, though. But its something that pops up a lot.

Its one of those situations where rank doesn't matter, until it does.

I get it. I'm a very "against the tide" kind of person, I don't know why and often wish I play nice better. I teach traditional martial arts yet I do a great deal of things my way, I don't let tradition hamper my program in any way, or at least try not to. I agree we get too hung up on it in martial arts for sure.

My idea about what makes this OK or not OK though has nothing to do with that, and more the politics. As martial artists we all know rank is subjective, your 1st Dan isn't always my 1st Dan and so on. I belong to no organozation, or at least none that dictate my curriculum as a standard. So what is the measure of my standard. It's my experiences, not yours, or sensei8, or anybodies right? The same, I doubt it BUT I'll bet there's not as big of a gap as could be in some places.

My only problem here is that from the paperwork standpoint, you will carry rank in kenpo (sorry my phone keeps deciding how to spell it, it's kenpo as I know it) and if all you have to do is be a student of tang soo do or even a mixed art, to get any rank in kenpo what does this do in the long run. I mean, here the line on so and so facebook. "Derick so and so " is a 1st degree black belt in tang soo do, and a 1st degree black belt in kenpo karate as well. This points out the lack of a true depth to somebodies rank.

I'm a "rank is subjective guy" but not a "rank means nothing" guy. There's a bug difference and that kenpo specific rank means nothing until they earn it.

You know, in my "LIL NINJAS" class ots 6 and 7yrs old. They can earn a black belt in Lil ninjas, then they start at white belt in the REAL program at 8yrs old. Or at least the Jr program. Starting at white is easier for some then others bit it's a test of character, it's a lesson and journey of growth. If I walk into a kenpo place, a shotokan karate place, an ata taekwondo place I don't expect any rank for my hard work, not because I practice tang soo do which is a derivative of shotokan, not because I practice WTF style the kwon do, or whatever. I wouldn't want the rank because rank looks good on paper, but it's the actual training that I'd be after. This is the biggest lesson that misses most that practice martial arts and I really dislike that about the arts. In many ways rank is more damaging IMHO then good, or at least it's a close issue.

Sorry for the ramble lol. My wife get tired of hearing me get worked up about these topics so I'm here haha.

[sensei8]

I'm a "Proof is on the floor" type of person!! Funny, and sad, at the same time, how often the white belt rank is treated more like of a disgrace, other than being treated like an honor!!

Without the white belt rank, NO RANK IS ATTAINABLE!!

[KenpokarateMaster]

My School Flores Bros Kenpo Karate is a great Awesome school because my school has been around since 1978 and my Instructor is a awesome great instructor specially my Sifu Jesus Flores His a 10 Degree in American Kenpo Karate he was trained by Ed parker 3rd degree in FMA Train by Dan Inosanto and a blue Belt in Juijutsu train by Gracie and a lot of peole have joined my studio or dojo that i train and I love it I learn a lot from it im a green belt at Flores Bros Kenpo Karate and ive been doing it 2 years and 3 months im also a member of the SWAT Team at my karate Studio and soon to be an assistant instructor and I love my Flores Bros Kenpo karate Family FBKKS 4 life

When I was Living in Bakersfield I was doing Shotokan Karate do off and on and I was a high orange almost Green then when I moved Back to my Home Town Oxnard I did American Kenpo Karate and I started all over again to white so ya Its not right to let people get the same rank with a different Martial arts Style they have to learn the basic and style of Martial arts that they Transfer too

[chiliphil1]

My new dojo put me at white belt. He knew of my previous training but it didn't make the slightest bit of difference. Everyone through those doors comes in with a white belt! There is a lady who takes class as well, she's been there longer than me so she wears an orange belt but she's a 2nd dan in TKD, she also started at white. My instructor also hosts Sauer BJJ there as well and even he, who owns the school and is a 4th dan wears a blue belt in that class.

I'm actually glad that I started at white, I had this worry when starting back up that the school would want to place me into an advanced rank and I didn't want to do that. If I was going to learn something new I wanted to start back at zero and that's what I got, so it worked out well. I also have the benefit of no one having to know about my experience unless I tell them, I like that because it allows me to take my time learning the new material without high expectations being placed on me.

[Lupin1]

To be honest, I wouldn't want to keep my rank starting at a new school. When I was serving with AmeriCorps I tried a TKD dojo for about a month. At first I wore a white belt, but then they insisted I wear my (at the time) green belt from Isshinryu.

I didn't like it. People started expecting me to know things in TKD that I didn't know, I felt like people were always judging me to see if I "deserved" a green belt, it messed up the pecking order of the class a bit, and I didn't get that feeling of "working my way up" that helps structure those beginning steps into a new martial art.

Really the only benefit I saw to it was in partner work where it told people they could go just a little bit harder with me and served as a reminder to me that I wasn't a normal beginner (when I was wearing a white belt I found myself going too hard with the yellow belts because they were higher than me. It was harder to keep in mind they had only been doing martial arts for a few months while I had several years experience).