How can I respect your school?

[vantheman]

The way it typically is done at my school is if you have a substantial rank (generally a Dan rank) in any system, you get to train with the black belts at our school. You don't officially "transfer" rank, but you're allowed to wear your old belt. Similarly, you cannot simply move up to the next rank without first showing proficiency through your current rank, which can take as long as it would to get a regular black belt anyway. I think the idea is that my sensei doesn't think it makes a ton of sense to force a guy coming in with 15 plus years of martial arts experience (albeit in a different style) in a beginners class. I see legitimate arguments for and against this practice.

Now, if the transferring student studied something extremely similar, we generally accept the rank.

If someone studied a different style and acquired some "minor" rank, that person would probably start at white (and in cases where that has happened, they willing want to start at white anyway).

[JR 137]

Playing devil's advocate, here's a scenario...

You and I are professional and personal friends. You teach TSD, I teach kempo. We work out together every now and then. I own a part-time school an hour away. I fully respect you as a MAist and a teacher. We have the same standards, but different syllabi. We're on the same page as to what's expected from various ranks - attitude, spirit, dedication, work ethic, physical standards, and so on.

You don't have any students who are ready to become a CI. Not enough experience, but one day they'll be there. Just not now, and not for several years.

Life gets in the way, and you've got to move from Phoenix to NY because it's what's best for your family. You're dedicated to your students, and don't want to close shop and tell them to find something else. You ask me to take over the dojo. Having respect for you, your standards, and your teaching, I accept. I know your students have earned their rank and weren't just handed it. They didn't buy it.

I allow them to keep their rank, even though it's a different system altogether. I teach them the syllabus as though they just started, and move on when they've shown proficiency. They don't promote until they've demonstrated they're worthy of the next rank in my system. If it takes a year or 5 years, they wear the same belt until they're promoted according to my system/syllabus.

Anything wrong with that scenario?

Again, I'm sure that rarely happens, but it may be the case. Just playing devil's advocate here.

[sensei8]

Playing devil's advocate, here's a scenario...

You and I are professional and personal friends. You teach TSD, I teach kempo. We work out together every now and then. I own a part-time school an hour away. I fully respect you as a MAist and a teacher. We have the same standards, but different syllabi. We're on the same page as to what's expected from various ranks - attitude, spirit, dedication, work ethic, physical standards, and so on.

You don't have any students who are ready to become a CI. Not enough experience, but one day they'll be there. Just not now, and not for several years.

Life gets in the way, and you've got to move from Phoenix to NY because it's what's best for your family. You're dedicated to your students, and don't want to close shop and tell them to find something else. You ask me to take over the dojo. Having respect for you, your standards, and your teaching, I accept. I know your students have earned their rank and weren't just handed it. They didn't buy it.

I allow them to keep their rank, even though it's a different system altogether. I teach them the syllabus as though they just started, and move on when they've shown proficiency. They don't promote until they've demonstrated they're worthy of the next rank in my system. If it takes a year or 5 years, they wear the same belt until they're promoted according to my system/syllabus.

Anything wrong with that scenario?

Again, I'm sure that rarely happens, but it may be the case. Just playing devil's advocate here.

To the bold type above...

Within the scenario...

Everything is wrong with that scenario! If allowed, then I suppose that rank is the most important thing to the students! If rank isn't important to the student, than the student would be proud to wear the while belt. Experience will be respected as it's revealed on the floor; other students will know that said student(s) have experience/knowledge.

Also, I feel that rank must be important to you as well, even though you're the instructor. Otherwise, you would've presented them [students] with a white belt without question and/or much discussion, if any. Those students have no rank in your style, so, tell them to wear the white belt and be proud to wear it because that's what they are in your style.

Furthermore, you could be allowing this to pad the P&L's bottom line!! In a try to keep a respectable student body count, you allow them to maintain rank ON YOUR FLOOR, even though, they're not ranked in your style.

Having said that, away from the scenario, the decision, per this scenario, is up to you. While I don't agree with your decision, which means I don't like your decision, I still respect you for your decision, and I still respect you both as a excellent MA/CI as well as a person; my friendship wouldn't have been waned, not even the slightest.

[Spartacus Maximus]

What do the students want to learn? If they wish to continue in the previous instructor's system they are free and welcom to go an seek out an instructor who will accommodate them and thus keep their rank.

Do they want to learn a new system under the new instructor? If yes, they should have no issues about first setting aside whatever they have learned before and open their minds to what that instructor has to offer. In that case their kempo exoerience might help them, but insisting on keeping their rank in a different system will do more harm than good.

More often than not, it is those without baggage who have the advantage in a new system precisely because they are unhindered by ingrained habits. Those with experience in a different system often have to train twice as hard to change or adapt instead of learning from scratch. This is very confusing and frustrating as it is difficult to change things that have become unconscious. Without thinking they will constantly find themselves reverting to what they trained before.

[JR 137]

Playing devil's advocate, here's a scenario...

You and I are professional and personal friends. You teach TSD, I teach kempo. We work out together every now and then. I own a part-time school an hour away. I fully respect you as a MAist and a teacher. We have the same standards, but different syllabi. We're on the same page as to what's expected from various ranks - attitude, spirit, dedication, work ethic, physical standards, and so on.

You don't have any students who are ready to become a CI. Not enough experience, but one day they'll be there. Just not now, and not for several years.

Life gets in the way, and you've got to move from Phoenix to NY because it's what's best for your family. You're dedicated to your students, and don't want to close shop and tell them to find something else. You ask me to take over the dojo. Having respect for you, your standards, and your teaching, I accept. I know your students have earned their rank and weren't just handed it. They didn't buy it.

I allow them to keep their rank, even though it's a different system altogether. I teach them the syllabus as though they just started, and move on when they've shown proficiency. They don't promote until they've demonstrated they're worthy of the next rank in my system. If it takes a year or 5 years, they wear the same belt until they're promoted according to my system/syllabus.

Anything wrong with that scenario?

Again, I'm sure that rarely happens, but it may be the case. Just playing devil's advocate here.

To the bold type above...

Within the scenario...

Everything is wrong with that scenario! If allowed, then I suppose that rank is the most important thing to the students! If rank isn't important to the student, than the student would be proud to wear the while belt. Experience will be respected as it's revealed on the floor; other students will know that said student(s) have experience/knowledge.

Also, I feel that rank must be important to you as well, even though you're the instructor. Otherwise, you would've presented them [students] with a white belt without question and/or much discussion, if any. Those students have no rank in your style, so, tell them to wear the white belt and be proud to wear it because that's what they are in your style.

Furthermore, you could be allowing this to pad the P&L's bottom line!! In a try to keep a respectable student body count, you allow them to maintain rank ON YOUR FLOOR, even though, they're not ranked in your style.

Having said that, away from the scenario, the decision, per this scenario, is up to you. While I don't agree with your decision, which means I don't like your decision, I still respect you for your decision, and I still respect you both as a excellent MA/CI as well as a person; my friendship wouldn't have been waned, not even the slightest.

Excellent counterpoint.

[Luther unleashed]

I can really see the other side perspective even more so the way everybody is putting it, but I still feel it's not ok and it doesn't really make sense.

I was ranked prior to starting at my most recent school, I didnt carry rank. I did however, move through the ranks quicker then some, and it even made people jealous. There were some students that really treated me bad for it. I don't disagree with moving somebody along or even ranking them at a higher rank later if they are on that path but this is a different situation of course.

To me, if it was even a similar style but not the same I wouldn't think much of it and it would make sense. If it was a shotokan school for example and they took over much of the main curriculum would be the same , but a radically different system just doesn't make sense to me. The polls are still split pretty evenly though, I suppose if people except it, it can't be that wrong.

[Lupin1]

I don't think it's lack of respect so much as it just doesn't make any sense to me. Rank at any given school is just a measure of how far along you are in that school's curriculum. Switching the curriculum completely while allowing people to keep rank makes no sense.

It's kinda like being a fourth year medical student and then deciding to switch to dentistry. Yes, some of your knowledge will carry over, but you can't just go in expecting to be considered a fourth year dentistry student with all that entails... You go back to year one until you learn your new trade.

[hammer]

I don't think it's lack of respect so much as it just doesn't make any sense to me. Rank at any given school is just a measure of how far along you are in that school's curriculum. Switching the curriculum completely while allowing people to keep rank makes no sense.

It's kinda like being a fourth year medical student and then deciding to switch to dentistry. Yes, some of your knowledge will carry over, but you can't just go in expecting to be considered a fourth year dentistry student with all that entails... You go back to year one until you learn your new trade.

I really like the analogy here.

Not sure how many here train or have trained in more than one style. In my own case, my previous experience may have helped with the basics, but as far as anything beyond that is concerned I've been no different from a brand new person.

[Luther unleashed]

Yes, I really like how lupin put that. Again, to me it's not so black and white though. I'm okay with somebody teaching something similar and allowing them some rank, but not something totally different. In the end I suppose to each their own. The ideas just very interesting

[JR 137]

My former school came from my current school. The founders of my former school were Tadashi Nakamura's students when he was in Kyokushin, and they followed him to Seido Juku.

When they left Seido, they kept the same basic syllabus up to and including shodan. They stripped it down, however. They put more emphasis on kata, and took out kumite strategy. I left to go away to grad school a few months before testing for nidan.

15 years later, I joined a Seido dojo. The biggest difference is it is very kumite heavy, and emphasis is on kihon and kumite strategy. We do our fair share of kata though.

I could demonstrate 100% of the material I learned 15 years prior. It needed sharpening, but my CI was very impressed with what I retained. I only needed learn about 15% of the syllabus to reach shodan.

I came in as a white belt (10th kyu). 9 months later, I'm an advanced yellow belt (5th kyu). Before I had the opportunity to ask, which I wouldn't anyway, he said "you can't wear your old belt in here." I didn't have any desire to, nor do I now.

I've tested for every rank (double promoted twice), and feel like I'm 100% earning it. Had he told me I could keep my rank from the get go, I probably wouldn't have stayed. A different dojo offered to let me keep it (very close in syllabus), and I'm not there. Not solely because of that, but that kind of spoke to how they do things. That CI knows my former sensei pretty well and respects him, having been a student with him back in the day.

So I guess I don't respect keeping rank. But there's an exception to every rule.