How can I respect your school?

[Luther unleashed]

So the most recent place I trained at is where I really learned to teach, my instructor was a very talented instructor and taught me many things, he was also extremely professional and so I'm thankful I got to train under him as an instructor in training.

He is leaving for Japan because of personal reasons and will no longer be teaching in Arizona after more than 10 years of teaching here

So, this is the school teaches tang soo do as a primary art just as I have decided to do, he also mixes in Arts just as I have decided to do but Kenpo karate is not one of them. There is a Kempo Karate School coming to take over his location and in an attempt to retain as many students as possible they have decided to allow students to maintain same rank in their system.

Now listen, I will take students at higher rank or even sometimes same rank if they come to me and they have rank in a similar system such as shotokan, tang soo do, or my old system of tong che bahk do. I would not though, as an example take a student that was a red belt in Taekwondo and give him the same rank because there are no rank requirements that are similar enough to give them same rank.

So as the title states, how can I possibly respect this Kempo Karate School for coming in and allowing students to maintain same rank in a completely different system. Obviously there is no true martial art intent behind this and this is 100% business and money driven. How can I possibly respect it? You are going to have students whom claim a certain rank in kenpo and even after their first test may know some of the art, but to rank them in that art when they have not earned it in that Arts and they do not truly know that Arts to me seems absolutely ridiculous. Typically my judgement is not quite so harsh, in this case I just can't make myself okay with the idea, and although it does not affect me, because I came from that school I can't help but feel annoyed at such money driven agendas.

What are your guys thoughts on something like this? Love to hear some.

[JR 137]

From a pessimistic point of view, you could look at it as money grabbing. From an optimistic point of view, you could view it as the instructor wants people who've proven they are committed MAists, and is doing what it takes, as trivial as letting them wear a different colored, to keep them in the MA.

Perhaps this was a condition in the agreement between the instructor leaving, and the one taking over.

If I ran a dojo and had someone who wanted to keep their rank, I'd have them wear a white belt for 3 months, then test them and rank them wherever I thought was appropriate, then give a rationale for their rank. If they didn't agree, they can find a different instructor who'll give them whatever they're looking for. By training for 3 months, the students and instructor have s solid idea of the students' strengths and weaknesses. Justification shouldn't be any surprise.

My old sensei did this when people came from different schools/styles of karate. Most stayed, some left. There was no contract to cause any money issues. One that really sticks out was a 3rd dan from a McDojo. My sensei was generous with ranking him at advanced brown belt. He told the student once he filled in the gaps of the syllabus, he'd test him for shodan 3-6 months afterward (depending on when the test falls). The guy got a bit mouthy and said "I'm a sandan," to which my sensei replied "in my dojo, you're whatever I rank you; you can be a 10th dan anywhere else. Outside here isn't my business, in here is."

The guy's skill level looked like he learned everything from YouTube videos without any feedback. This was before YouTube, so it wasn't the case. He did know sandan level stuff in other schools, but there wasn't much behind his physical memorization of stuff.

[Luther unleashed]

Now, I agree with what you're saying if you were to run a school. I'm basically saying the same thing. On my website I indicate that I will potentially take people in transferring in from another school, but I'm very clear that rank will be determined by me. I run my school in this manner, there is the main curriculum in which you must know to pass in rank, then there a supplemental curriculum in which we practice different techniques whether it be self defense or kicking drills that are not a requirement. If somebody comes from another school that has similar main curriculum then ranking them the same could be fairly easy, or at least within a rank below or so.

When I started teaching I retained some of the students from the previous program, I kept them at the same rank but the curriculum was very similar even though I had changed a fair amount of it, even this has proven to be difficult moving forward. I just cannot imagine taking a wing chun kung fu practiotoner in at same rank, knowing really nothing of what other students learn and are required to know. Then they leave in a month, or a week, or whatever, and they show a certificate in your system as that rank, in that system. Obviously it would be very much not genuine rank, and this is why rank in itself becomes not the end all be all for me personally, just because you say I am does not mean I am and sometimes I am even though you do not say I am.

Personally I could not do it, if you are a true martial artist then you should expect that taking a new martial arts leaves you starting from the beginning, because burning the rank should not be what it's all about and you should not be okay with missing many of the early on lessons in that art, the beginning is where most students get the strongest foundation and without that what do they have?

[tallgeese]

It goes to intent, but think about it this way. If you've been ranked in a striking art to brown/black belt level, then you're a committed student. Heck, so many systems are so similar you're probably scrapping at a decent level even if you don't know some of the specifics of the new system (kata, etc.) How many times do you train with other guys out of different systems at comparable rank that are just about or are flat out right where you are? Probably pretty often.

Now, how does a new instructor come in and disrespect your effort and skill for several years by telling you that you're a white belt again?

Now, if the standards are radically different I get it. If the arts are radically different (grappling v. striking v. a weapons art) then I get it.

It's situation dependent. Personally, when I taught kempo based arts I let anyone who came in out of a karate based system wear the rank they'd earned in that system. If they stayed around long enough then I awarded them rank in ours if they were pursuing it.

But that's just me. I don't let karate guys wear that rank on a BJJ mat. I would expect it to work the other way as well. But again, just my take on it.

[DWx]

It's an interesting scenario for sure but then again it's also a unique one in the sense that it's not often a school will effectively get taken over by a different style. IMHO it is a tactic to get the students to stay. It's a statement from the new instructor saying he recognises their hard work so far. And the styles are not a million miles apart as say BJJ and Tang Soo Do are.

In general I am against retaining rank when switching styles however this normally happens when students seek out different schools by themselves. These students have collectively had their acccess to normal training removed so in a way I think it's a nice gesture of goodwill of the new instructor to let them hold their rank until they catch up with the curriculum.

[Spartacus Maximus]

It is a simple matter of good faith and readiness to learn. Students choose their instructor because they want to learn what the instructor teaches, in the way it is taught by that instructor. This requires good faith from the student who must be willing to accept whatever is taught. The first step towards this is for the student to let go of any previous status, preconceived notions or habits and be ready to learn with an open mind.

Ranks cannot and must not transfer precisely because they are arbitrary. Physical skills may give a head start and these are far more important than the colour of a belt. More important still are patience, perseverance and dedication which do transfer.

This is what experience teaches a former 3dan, who restarted the exact same system. Insisting on keeping that rank would have been a very foolish thing to do and rendered any improvement or advancement in skill, impossible.

[JR 137]

It's an interesting scenario for sure but then again it's also a unique one in the sense that it's not often a school will effectively get taken over by a different style. IMHO it is a tactic to get the students to stay. It's a statement from the new instructor saying he recognises their hard work so far. And the styles are not a million miles apart as say BJJ and Tang Soo Do are.

In general I am against retaining rank when switching styles however this normally happens when students seek out different schools by themselves. These students have collectively had their acccess to normal training removed so in a way I think it's a nice gesture of goodwill of the new instructor to let them hold their rank until they catch up with the curriculum.

Solid points, DWx. The students didn't willingly leave one instructor for another. Another instructor inherited them, so to speak. Kind of like teacher to student: "You came to me, therefore you follow my rules" doesn't necessarily apply here. It's more of students to teacher: "You came to us, if you want us to stay with you, you'll respect this one request."

It seems like the former instructor told his successor that his students worked hard and earned their rank.

If you start a new system, you hold a new rank. There's an exception to every rule, and I'd say this is probably the exception. At the end of the day, they didn't seek him out.

[sensei8]

My answer to the poll...NO!! So, my response is based on the polls question.

So, this is the school teaches tang soo do as a primary art just as I have decided to do, he also mixes in Arts just as I have decided to do but Kenpo karate is not one of them. There is a Kempo Karate School coming to take over his location and in an attempt to retain as many students as possible they have decided to allow students to maintain same rank in their system.

Sorry...I've no respect for that!! The bold type above speaks to me about MONEY being more important; it will pad their bottom line!!

So that I'm not writing a long post; I'm passionate about this subject!!

Want to learn Shindokan Saitou-ryu? OK! However, if you've never taken Shindokan before...ever...yet...you're ranked in one or more styles of the MA...you're new belt in Shindokan will be...

WHITE!!

I don't care if the style your ranked in is Shuri-te or Okinawa-te based; IT'S NOT SHINDOKAN!!

Nothing romantic about that!! No exceptions...don't pass Go, and don't collect $200 either!!

We/I don't and won't apologize for our/my stand on this!!

Hopefully, we all can still be friends!!

[Luther unleashed]

Lol were still friends sensei, mostly because that's how I feel lol. I like all the input though. I can reallly appreciate how dwx, jr137 and really everybody put it. It's a bit different since they didn't seek it out, but this is a good reason to train in an art that you can find elsware for this exact reason.

I think about it like this, I'm a black belt with the first program, should I go and see if I can maintain same rank in kenpo? I don't want it, the rank itself means very little to me, and I won't learn anything from the paper certificate, and I missed a great deal of the lessons skipping right to black belt. Just doesn't work for me personally but I'm glad to see others express their opinions openly, weather we agree or not. The poll reflects a split believe here. I didn't vote because I didn't want to vote on my own poll but it's clear I'm against it.

Edit; I'd like to add, from my old instructors standpoint I can understand as he wanted to not leave everybody hanging and losing out on rank, and to be able to continue. May be hard, not all schools will take you even if your the same style. In tang soo do the first question you will hear is "what association were you with" when trying to maintain rank. I get it, and I would ha e respected it more, and had no problem if it was a tang soo do school, but not a very different t art. For those that don't know, kenpo is very much like kung fu with fast repetitive strikes, TSD is more traditional like shotokan but with a taekwondo sort of desire to kick. It's just not the same. Just don't roll for me.

[sensei8]

Yes, I too, deeply respect everyone who posted here about the subject!! It's just not our/my way!!