Structure of Your Training?

[sensei8]

Hi, I know Ive only taken up karate 5 months ago but the Dojo I joined seems to focus mostly on kata's. My passion would be for using it in the real world (I hope never to have to use it). I'd like to learn close combat techniques along with the blocks and kicks.

I attend twice a week and the senior class is quite small (about 5 or 6). Of the students I'm the oldest while the others are teenagers so Im not sure if this determines the structure of what Im being taught?

Is this how beginners start off?

Thanks

Most traditional Karate schools tend to base their syllabus on Kata.

This may be hard to grasp (particularly as a newbie), but you need to stop trying to make a lateral connection between what you are currently practicing and self defence.

The pedagogy of any Kata based system (and not just Karate) is a layered approach to learning the system itself.

By this, I mean in your particular dojo, you are there to learn Shotokan, in a Shotokan way by using Shotokan kata etc. etc.

BTW, most of us have a tendency to assume Kata are just the like of Heian Shodan etc., but actually, Kata is anything that is pre-arranged (including pair work and Basics (kihon).

In this respect, strictly speaking - in Karate there is only Kata and Kumite.

The Pedagogy of systems like Shotokan is there to realise "Shu Ha Ri" i.e. the journey an individual takes from Kata (fixed practice) to Kumite (free fighting).

And as I tell folk who enquire to come and train at my dojo...

If you want to learn self defence - go to a self defence class.

K.

Solid post!!

[JR 137]

Hi, I know Ive only taken up karate 5 months ago but the Dojo I joined seems to focus mostly on kata's. My passion would be for using it in the real world (I hope never to have to use it). I'd like to learn close combat techniques along with the blocks and kicks.

I attend twice a week and the senior class is quite small (about 5 or 6). Of the students I'm the oldest while the others are teenagers so Im not sure if this determines the structure of what Im being taught?

Is this how beginners start off?

Thanks

Most traditional Karate schools tend to base their syllabus on Kata.

This may be hard to grasp (particularly as a newbie), but you need to stop trying to make a lateral connection between what you are currently practicing and self defence.

The pedagogy of any Kata based system (and not just Karate) is a layered approach to learning the system itself.

By this, I mean in your particular dojo, you are there to learn Shotokan, in a Shotokan way by using Shotokan kata etc. etc.

BTW, most of us have a tendency to assume Kata are just the like of Heian Shodan etc., but actually, Kata is anything that is pre-arranged (including pair work and Basics (kihon).

In this respect, strictly speaking - in Karate there is only Kata and Kumite.

The Pedagogy of systems like Shotokan is there to realise "Shu Ha Ri" i.e. the journey an individual takes from Kata (fixed practice) to Kumite (free fighting).

And as I tell folk who enquire to come and train at my dojo...

If you want to learn self defence - go to a self defence class.

K.

I agree with everything but the last sentence. Isn't the point of karate self defense? Not that that's the only point. But the student should be able to come away from even the first class with some self defense training.

If I were to start my own school/system, I'd probably start with the basics of self defense - awareness, etc., basic ways to move and strike, etc., then get into kata and the real meaning. I think too many people walk away almost immediately thinking they've been there for a month and didn't learn anything practical. I could be way off. I'll tell you how it goes when I start my own system

[wildbourgman]

We have changed our structure from white belt to black belt and it totally reinvigorated our dojo.

For instance at white belt we still start with Kihon, so you learn to walk, block, punch and kick properly as normal in most clubs.

Second we start with basic bunkai kumite that correlates with your level of kata.

Only then do you learn the kata, so that you remember the bunkai kumite that you were taught. This stops kata from just being a dance.

I like this adjustment so far and I think the rest of the students do to.

[Maybetrue]

If one trains and perfects his/her Kata correctly, you should actually not need to practice kumite. I know of one famous instructor from Japan that only practiced KATA and did no kumite practice prior to entering a tournament. This famous instructor won his first tournament.

This might not work in the modern times because of the "specialization" of Kata or Kumite by individuals due to rule changes of sport karate. Kata has separated its roots/meaning/attachment with kumite as Kata is more acting and "prettiness" with less focus on power and intent which KUMITE is in general.

Even my dojo has multiple ways of doing a specific Kata , Kata for OPEN traditional tournaments, closed tournaments and even Open styles tournament.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Maybetrue

[JR 137]

If one trains and perfects his/her Kata correctly, you should actually not need to practice kumite. I know of one famous instructor from Japan that only practiced KATA and did no kumite practice prior to entering a tournament. This famous instructor won his first tournament.

This might not work in the modern times because of the "specialization" of Kata or Kumite by individuals due to rule changes of sport karate. Kata has separated its roots/meaning/attachment with kumite as Kata is more acting and "prettiness" with less focus on power and intent which KUMITE is in general.

Even my dojo has multiple was of doing a specific Kata , Kata for OPEN traditional tournaments, closed tournaments and even Open styles tournament.

Agreed. However, videos of even the most hardcore traditionalists in Okinawa do drills directly related to kata. While they may not be free-sparring, they're going pretty close to full speed with the attack and defense. And there's heavy contact if you don't "receive" the attack correctly. Too many "traditionalists" here in the US think kata alone is what they do. From what I've seen in videos and heard from first hand accounts, it's not the case. In an interview with "the man who inherited Miyagi's belt," (can't remember his name of the top of my head; he was Miyagi's top student), he stated that Miyagi didn't teach students their first kata (Sanchin) for about 3 years after they started. What does this mean? A lot of the so called traditionalists who think kata from day one on is "the way" haven't done their history homework.

[Maybetrue]

If one trains and perfects his/her Kata correctly, you should actually not need to practice kumite. I know of one famous instructor from Japan that only practiced KATA and did no kumite practice prior to entering a tournament. This famous instructor won his first tournament.

This might not work in the modern times because of the "specialization" of Kata or Kumite by individuals due to rule changes of sport karate. Kata has separated its roots/meaning/attachment with kumite as Kata is more acting and "prettiness" with less focus on power and intent which KUMITE is in general.

Even my dojo has multiple was of doing a specific Kata , Kata for OPEN traditional tournaments, closed tournaments and even Open styles tournament.

Agreed. However, videos of even the most hardcore traditionalists in Okinawa do drills directly related to kata. While they may not be free-sparring, they're going pretty close to full speed with the attack and defense. And there's heavy contact if you don't "receive" the attack correctly. Too many "traditionalists" here in the US think kata alone is what they do. From what I've seen in videos and heard from first hand accounts, it's not the case. In an interview with "the man who inherited Miyagi's belt," (can't remember his name of the top of my head; he was Miyagi's top student), he stated that Miyagi didn't teach students their first kata (Sanchin) for about 3 years after they started. What does this mean? A lot of the so called traditionalists who think kata from day one on is "the way" haven't done their history homework.

actually, one is suppose to do stretching for months before even learning techniques.

If i had it my way, students would do only a few techniques and only learn new techniques as they perfect the basic one first.

BUT.............................. if i taught how i really wanted, there would only be 5 students left since everyone would quit or be injured.

I have been to two very well known dojo's(not my style) in Okinawa. Would love to train in that type of dojos. The feeling of wood floors and the history of the dojo was very "sacred". One Sensei actually brought out a very old "BOOK" with the "tree" of students and instructors that were connected to that dojo and got very emotional about some "X" out instructors. The traditional Okinawan Dojo take Karate and lineage very seriously.

[JR 137]

If one trains and perfects his/her Kata correctly, you should actually not need to practice kumite. I know of one famous instructor from Japan that only practiced KATA and did no kumite practice prior to entering a tournament. This famous instructor won his first tournament.

This might not work in the modern times because of the "specialization" of Kata or Kumite by individuals due to rule changes of sport karate. Kata has separated its roots/meaning/attachment with kumite as Kata is more acting and "prettiness" with less focus on power and intent which KUMITE is in general.

Even my dojo has multiple was of doing a specific Kata , Kata for OPEN traditional tournaments, closed tournaments and even Open styles tournament.

Agreed. However, videos of even the most hardcore traditionalists in Okinawa do drills directly related to kata. While they may not be free-sparring, they're going pretty close to full speed with the attack and defense. And there's heavy contact if you don't "receive" the attack correctly. Too many "traditionalists" here in the US think kata alone is what they do. From what I've seen in videos and heard from first hand accounts, it's not the case. In an interview with "the man who inherited Miyagi's belt," (can't remember his name of the top of my head; he was Miyagi's top student), he stated that Miyagi didn't teach students their first kata (Sanchin) for about 3 years after they started. What does this mean? A lot of the so called traditionalists who think kata from day one on is "the way" haven't done their history homework.

actually, one is suppose to do stretching for months before even learning techniques.

If i had it my way, students would do only a few techniques and only learn new techniques as they perfect the basic one first.

BUT.............................. if i taught how i really wanted, there would only be 5 students left since everyone would quit or be injured.

I have been to two very well known dojo's(not my style) in Okinawa. Would love to train in that type of dojos. The feeling of wood floors and the history of the dojo was very "sacred". One Sensei actually brought out a very old "BOOK" with the "tree" of students and instructors that were connected to that dojo and got very emotional about some "X" out instructors. The traditional Okinawan Dojo take Karate and lineage very seriously.

I'd love to travel to Okinawa and train, but living on school teachers' salary (my wife an I both teach) won't make that possible any time soon. And there's a huge difference between training on wood floors and mats. My old sensei relocated three times during my original run. The first dojo was wood floors, the second was mats, and the third was wood again. We all loved having the wood floor back. As stupid as it sounds, especially for rolling/falling during sweeps. It made it far more realistic and let you know when you made a mistake.

And I'm with you when you talk about teaching a handful of techniques, waiting for mastery of them, then moving on afterward. This is how I teach my middle school science students. It drives my boss crazy because she thinks at that level it's all about exposure to the content rather than mastery. I get it and respect that way of thinking; she thinks they'll get the depth at higher levels. She drops her respectful disagreement when the results of my students' standardized tests come back and they've all shown very strong skills. I'd much rather mastery of 10 topics in a year than superficial exposure to 20 topics in the same timeframe. Karate is no different in this regard IMO.

[Maybetrue]

If one trains and perfects his/her Kata correctly, you should actually not need to practice kumite. I know of one famous instructor from Japan that only practiced KATA and did no kumite practice prior to entering a tournament. This famous instructor won his first tournament.

This might not work in the modern times because of the "specialization" of Kata or Kumite by individuals due to rule changes of sport karate. Kata has separated its roots/meaning/attachment with kumite as Kata is more acting and "prettiness" with less focus on power and intent which KUMITE is in general.

Even my dojo has multiple was of doing a specific Kata , Kata for OPEN traditional tournaments, closed tournaments and even Open styles tournament.

Agreed. However, videos of even the most hardcore traditionalists in Okinawa do drills directly related to kata. While they may not be free-sparring, they're going pretty close to full speed with the attack and defense. And there's heavy contact if you don't "receive" the attack correctly. Too many "traditionalists" here in the US think kata alone is what they do. From what I've seen in videos and heard from first hand accounts, it's not the case. In an interview with "the man who inherited Miyagi's belt," (can't remember his name of the top of my head; he was Miyagi's top student), he stated that Miyagi didn't teach students their first kata (Sanchin) for about 3 years after they started. What does this mean? A lot of the so called traditionalists who think kata from day one on is "the way" haven't done their history homework.

actually, one is suppose to do stretching for months before even learning techniques.

If i had it my way, students would do only a few techniques and only learn new techniques as they perfect the basic one first.

BUT.............................. if i taught how i really wanted, there would only be 5 students left since everyone would quit or be injured.

I have been to two very well known dojo's(not my style) in Okinawa. Would love to train in that type of dojos. The feeling of wood floors and the history of the dojo was very "sacred". One Sensei actually brought out a very old "BOOK" with the "tree" of students and instructors that were connected to that dojo and got very emotional about some "X" out instructors. The traditional Okinawan Dojo take Karate and lineage very seriously.

I'd love to travel to Okinawa and train, but living on school teachers' salary (my wife an I both teach) won't make that possible any time soon. And there's a huge difference between training on wood floors and mats. My old sensei relocated three times during my original run. The first dojo was wood floors, the second was mats, and the third was wood again. We all loved having the wood floor back. As stupid as it sounds, especially for rolling/falling during sweeps. It made it far more realistic and let you know when you made a mistake.

And I'm with you when you talk about teaching a handful of techniques, waiting for mastery of them, then moving on afterward. This is how I teach my middle school science students. It drives my boss crazy because she thinks at that level it's all about exposure to the content rather than mastery. I get it and respect that way of thinking; she thinks they'll get the depth at higher levels. She drops her respectful disagreement when the results of my students' standardized tests come back and they've all shown very strong skills. I'd much rather mastery of 10 topics in a year than superficial exposure to 20 topics in the same timeframe. Karate is no different in this regard IMO.

Okinawa has some of the most friendly people in the world. Safe place and beautiful.

Highly recommend going to Okinawa for any reason not only for Karate.

[Kusotare]

I agree with everything but the last sentence. Isn't the point of karate self defense? Not that that's the only point. But the student should be able to come away from even the first class with some self defense training.

Well, I think it would be more accurate to refer to a traditional Karate system like Shotokan as a Martial Art or Martial Tradition - rather than self defence!

Arguably, one is born out of the other, but I think it is important to differentiate between the two.

Shotokan, as a system, is there to get people good at Shotokan Karate- not necessarily to improve your ability to defend yourself - that's not its raison d'etre.

Yes, there is a cross over, but by focusing on self defence you are at risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The ongoing study of a martial art is much more holistic.

Self defence on the other hand is an entity in its own right. If you are serious about it, there is an awful lot involved. It goes well beyond understanding the principles behind how to fight - that's relatively easy.

Spend a few hours looking into the likes of Rory Miller and you will quickly realise that what most consider self defence (as taught in the average karate class) is woefully inadequate.

In fact I'd even go as far to say it was dangerous to consider it as such.

K.

[JR 137]

I agree with everything but the last sentence. Isn't the point of karate self defense? Not that that's the only point. But the student should be able to come away from even the first class with some self defense training.

Shotokan, as a system, is there to get people good at Shotokan Karate- not necessarily to improve your ability to defend yourself - that's not its raison d'etre.

Yes, there is a cross over, but by focusing on self defence you are at risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The ongoing study of a martial art is much more holistic.

K.

Sorry to chop up your post; if I could bold text without butchering it, I'd have done that instead...

I haven't studied Shotokan specifically, so I can't comment on it as such, however I think the point in karate as a whole is self defense and self improvement. A big part of the self improvement is knowing that you can defend yourself adequately (or better), and therefore have nothing to prove, thereby helping you walk away everytime it's possible to do so.

Yes, technically speaking, fighting and self defense aren't the same thing, but I personally view them as one in the same because I have no desire to fight. My "let's step outside" days are over. Been there, done that, and I'm not proud of it. Luckily none of their friends followed us out, luckily none of the people that went onside had a gun or knife concealed. Luckily... a lot of things.

People can make fighting and self defense out to be entirely different animals, but it's different for every person. What isn't different is a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, a choke is a choke, a grab is a grab, and on and on ad neaseum. Physical techniques aren't the only aspect of self defense, but all techniques should be usable self defense techniques. There are some techniques I don't foresee ever throwing in self defense, such as nukite/spear hand, but that's because I don't train them the way they need to be trained to be effective. If I did Okinawan-type conditioning of my finger tips, then it would be a realistic option for me.

I started my journey in karate for self defense. I've continued and stayed for that reason as well. Yes, there's other reasons as well - health benefits, stress relief, self betterment, and so on that also keep me going, but take away the self defense, and I'm out. There's far better ways of achieving the others IMO. Religious studies, group exercise classes, self improvement seminars and books, and so on.

Everyone's journey is different. Mine is correct for me as of now. Yours is correct for you as of now.

But to be honest, I think we're a lot closer in our paths than words in a forum can ever show.