Structure of Your Training?

[Doire]

Hi, I know Ive only taken up karate 5 months ago but the Dojo I joined seems to focus mostly on kata's. My passion would be for using it in the real world (I hope never to have to use it). I'd like to learn close combat techniques along with the blocks and kicks.

I attend twice a week and the senior class is quite small (about 5 or 6). Of the students I'm the oldest while the others are teenagers so Im not sure if this determines the structure of what Im being taught?

Is this how beginners start off?

Thanks

[Kyonovice]

Hi

I train as often as I can at my dojo. My dojo train 3 times a week, now we train the following:

Monday - Kihon & Kata

Wednesday - knock down techniques

Friday - knock down and randori techniques

I thoroughly enjoy the kata work and am learning new things every time I train (I am a white belt in Kyokushin, but have studied in Shotokan to a higher level). I have already gone through to Pinan Sono Ich and tonight we went through Sanchin No Kata - that hurt!

The knock down stuff is new to me in that Shotokan doesn't train it, but I do like it, the randori is excellent but I wish I could get to grips with it more!

The combination of all 3 is an excellent mix I have to say.

[Lupin1]

We focus mostly on kata as well. The kids' class usually goes warm ups, basic techniques and kicking, and kata with sparring for intermediate and advanced kids on Tuesday nights with more partner drills on Thursdays. The adult class is pretty much half kata, half partner techniques/bunkai. We go back and forth between kata and practicing techniques with partners. Warm ups and basic kihon are usually practiced outside of class or before class on your own time.

If it's been 5 months and that's all you've been doing, it's unlikely it's going to change. Ask your instructor about it. Ask if the program you're in does sparring or if you can do some more partner drills. Tell him what you're looking for and what your goals are. You've been there long enough to have a good feel for what you want but you're still new enough that you're still exploring and if you realize you want something different, there's not too much lost by moving on.

Hopefully your instructor will be up front and honest about the goals and focus of his program. The dojo you're in may not be the best one for you and for your goals. You may want to look at some other local dojos or even into some other arts such as BJJ, Muay Thai or boxing. Different places have different focuses. The key is to find a place whose focuses match your goals.

[JR 137]

What style karate do you study, as in shotokan, goju ryu, etc.? Some styles focus heavily on kata, and don't do much free-sparring. Others focus heavily on free-sparring and kata is more of an afterthought, relatively speaking.

IMO, performing kata without application is pretty much pointless. I wouldn't stick around very long if it seemed like all I was doing is kata without any meaning behind it, but that's just me.

5 months isn't terribly long to be in any martial art. But there must be some sort of 'reward' or 'this is why we do this.' It's not the era where Chojun Miyagi (founder of Goju Ryu) had his students do manual labor without compensation or teaching them for 3 years to see who was worthy. You're paying for the training, and it should be what you want. That doesn't mean make threats and demands; it means if you're not getting what you feel you should be getting, respectfully ask the teacher. If you don't like the response or you feel you're being given lip service, find another place to train. The dojo shouldn't change what they do for one person, and the one person shouldn't be obligated to stay or wait around for something that probably won't materialize. Patience is a virtue, but is your patience worthwhile?

[sensei8]

Kihon

Kata

Kumite

The 3 K's of karate-do; an invaluable path in ones MA betterment. Too heavy on one, forces the other(s) to become weak. Therefore, evenly trained, the karateka is more stable. Imagine you've a chair! Imagine that your chair has 3 evenly spaced out legs; the supportive structure can be quite solid. Now, imagine that you take out one of those 3 legs! Now what are you left with? An incomplete and unstable thing, not only in a chair, but in the karateka as well!!

Within Kata, most, if not all, of a styles syllabus/curriculum can be found. How the 3 K's are taught, and in what order, imho, is indifferent just as long as all 3 are evenly learnt as they were taught. Kata heavy at first, then Kihon, and then Kumite, is a Sensei's choice. Nonetheless, I teach Kihon first, then Kata, then Kumite, intertwining and overlapping until the lattice is complete; solid, and quite stable.

In another 5 months, you'll see things with different eyes and notions, and this is good. But the good news is this!! A MA journey takes more than 5 months...10 months...10 years...51 years to complete. Alas, ones MA journey is never complete because there's so much to ones MA journey. This is for certain!!

Train hard...train well!!

[Doire]

Thanks for the replies. Some interesting comments.

JR 137 I practice shotokan

Maybe when Im there a bit longer I will be trained in other things. Its tough on him though as the senior class is made up of a mixture of different belts. I suppose he is trying to accommodate everyone especially when grading isnt far away.

Im going to stick at it though as he is such a good sensei and his passion keeps me attending his class

[jaypo]

I would offer you this suggestion: pull up Youtube and research self defense techniques from the Katas you practice (probably the Heians). Try to type in "didier lupo bunkai". I've always been impressed with his interpretations. Another good one is Iain Abernethy. He has some awesome vision as well.

The fun will start when you see how your katas can be used, and it becomes even better when you start to figure things out on your own.

Since you're in Shotokan, I'm sure you're working on Heian Shodan. Try to perform the kata using only offense. Each gedan barai is a hammer strike to the stomach. After the first step and punch, grab the opponent's gi. The turn to the right is a throw, etc. When you think of things that way, you have a different perspective.

I really think you'll like those videos above. Try 'em out!

[Kusotare]

Hi, I know Ive only taken up karate 5 months ago but the Dojo I joined seems to focus mostly on kata's. My passion would be for using it in the real world (I hope never to have to use it). I'd like to learn close combat techniques along with the blocks and kicks.

I attend twice a week and the senior class is quite small (about 5 or 6). Of the students I'm the oldest while the others are teenagers so Im not sure if this determines the structure of what Im being taught?

Is this how beginners start off?

Thanks

Most traditional Karate schools tend to base their syllabus on Kata.

This may be hard to grasp (particularly as a newbie), but you need to stop trying to make a lateral connection between what you are currently practicing and self defence.

The pedagogy of any Kata based system (and not just Karate) is a layered approach to learning the system itself.

By this, I mean in your particular dojo, you are there to learn Shotokan, in a Shotokan way by using Shotokan kata etc. etc.

BTW, most of us have a tendency to assume Kata are just the like of Heian Shodan etc., but actually, Kata is anything that is pre-arranged (including pair work and Basics (kihon).

In this respect, strictly speaking - in Karate there is only Kata and Kumite.

The Pedagogy of systems like Shotokan is there to realise "Shu Ha Ri" i.e. the journey an individual takes from Kata (fixed practice) to Kumite (free fighting).

And as I tell folk who enquire to come and train at my dojo...

If you want to learn self defence - go to a self defence class.

K.

[JR 137]

From my limited knowledge of it, Shotokan is very kata heavy. But kata shouldn't be the only thing training consists of. Just because everything is based on kata doesn't meant all you do is kata. It should be learn/physically memorize the movements to a basic level of proficiency, learn basic bunkai (applications), do drills from the kata/bunkai, work on improving your kata (sharpen it up), learn more advanced bunkai, more in-depth drills, rinse, lather, repeat.

I unfortunately don't see this in too many Shotokan schools in my neck of the woods. Without realistic bunkai, kata is pretty much pointless IMO. To be honest, my dojo doesn't do enough bunkai. We do other things that are actually related to stuff found in kata (even a few advanced students haven't made the outright connection!*), we do other self defense type stuff and drills and free sparring, so I'm don't feel short changed by any means.

* We were working on prearranged self defense techniques involving various sweeps and takedowns. One of them involves groin punch, then that hand/arm comes behind the knee while the other arm hits across the waist. The arm behind the knee and arm across the waist creates a scissors effect, taking someone down pretty hard, especially when combined with a shoulder bump. Very hard to explain until I tell you where it's from - the last counts of Pinan 5/Heian Godan. The step into zen at 45, bottom hand palm up nukite, top arm across the chest and hand over the shoulder, then the next count is that snapping motion of gedan brai and the other arm up like you're flexing your bicep in kiba dachi. I was working with a nidan and brown belt, and I said "just visualize Pinan 5's ending, then follow up with a punch." Both of their eyes widened in shock. Was it really that hard?

A YouTube video would have been so much easier for me to describe it. I don't have the patience to video tape it. Maybe one day.

[Kyonovice]

I studied Shotokan for many years before my break, yes it is a bit Kata heavy but then so are many forms/styles of karate.

You should be learning Kihon as well as the Kata (do you start with Taikyoku series or go straight into Heian?). There should also be an element of sparring, sort one step and five step sparring at that level.

I say there should be because it's Shotokan and unfortunately things in Shotokan got very political and there were various fragment organisations such as JKA, KUGB, EKGB etc etc the list is endless.

Speak to your sensei and see what he says.