Sparring - bad advice from sensei?

[sensei8]

Just further proof that karate instructors are just people, not the great bastions of morality and virtue that is in the advertising.

Gamesmanship occurs in most sports to some degree or another. Everyone has seen football players rolling around on the grass hoping for a free kick or penalty.

Karate tournament is nothing more than a game and so winning is the ultimate aim. If you are into that side of karate expect to encounter it. That this stuff happens is one of many reasons not to take sports karate too seriously.

Personally it would not be my choice to conduct myself in that way in a tournament and if my opponent did then the match might get a little heated.

If it were my instructor telling me such things they would not be my instructor for long.

I enjoyed your post Dave, has made me think, "Sport" karate and traditional karate, are they mutually exclusive, can someone who practises traditional karate be competitive in Open tournaments.......

One mindset says beat the other guy any way possible and the other says you are competing against yourself.

Interesting topic.

I'm traditional, yet from 1964 to 1990 I competed in open tournaments quite often; I did very well. From 1964 - 1977, I competed in Open Tournaments every single week, and from 1977 - 1984, I competed in Open Tournaments once a month, and from 1984 - 1990, I competed in Open Tournaments once per quarter. My last tournament was the 1990 Bakersfield California All Open Tournament where I took home 4 Grand Championships and one 1st Place trophy(s). During all of those years I competed, I never once did what the OP speaks towards; I didn't need to. If I lost, I lost, and if I won, I won!!

Did you compete in the All-Valley Under 18 Karate Tournament in '84? I saw that tourney on TV.

Sorry, couldn't help it. Being from the valley and competing during that time.

Ahhh, you're killing me JR 137...I saw it at the movie theater.

Being from the Valley during that time, as you say, California in itself, back than was a wash of tournaments all over the state of California, and that's why I was so often at tournaments weekend after weekend. A group of us traveled all over the state, sponsored by our parents. One didn't have to look hard to find a tournament in California. Las Vegas and Phoenix are just a stone throw away, as an alternate source for finding a tournament.

[Maybetrue]

sad. all the theatrics in sport karate now days. reminds me of the open style tournaments in the 1980's.

[sensei8]

sad. all the theatrics in sport karate now days. reminds me of the open style tournaments in the 1980's.

Interesting, that you'd say that. How so, if I may ask??

[Maybetrue]

First of all Open tournaments in the 1970's was still hardcore with traditional and open styles competing in the same tournaments with true blood all over.

but in the 1980's it became touch,slap and theatrics(similar to the sport karate olympic style now).

1980's open style and current "olympic" karate similarities:

- front leg kicks, reverse hook kicks to head with LEAD LEG and with TOES as impact scoring.

- Touch with strikes and TURN AROUND And raise your arm and look at the judges..lol

-specialist, only kata or only kumite competitors.

-jumping around and tapping your "gloves/hands"

-points are basically unlimited to win.

-weight divisions

-etc.. etc.. and etc..

-etc....

[sensei8]

First of all Open tournaments in the 1970's was still hardcore with traditional and open styles competing in the same tournaments with true blood all over.

but in the 1980's it became touch,slap and theatrics(similar to the sport karate olympic style now).

1980's open style and current "olympic" karate similarities:

- front leg kicks, reverse hook kicks to head with LEAD LEG and with TOES as impact scoring.

- Touch with strikes and TURN AROUND And raise your arm and look at the judges..lol

-specialist, only kata or only kumite competitors.

-jumping around and tapping your "gloves/hands"

-points are basically unlimited to win.

-weight divisions

-etc.. etc.. and etc..

-etc....

I agree with you! When I first encountered the slapping techniques as a score...I was befuddled, to say the least, because to me, and others, the slapping techniques lacked penetration, or the appearance of dynamic penetration. A hit was a hit and a slap was a slap, and a hit earned a point, while the slap shouldn't have. But, tournament arbitrators back then saw a way to make a slap worthy, and I believe that that was possible because the tourney was theirs to do with as they please. In that, a slapping technique became a point.

So, whenever I entered tourneys that amplified and encouraged the slapping techniques over the penetrative techniques, it was hard for me to adjust right away, and in that, I ended up being disqualified for the dynamic penetration as being a technique that lacked control, and that became a safety issue for that tourney.

Change is inevitable, but at times, not all changes are good, imho!!

[Maybetrue]

First of all Open tournaments in the 1970's was still hardcore with traditional and open styles competing in the same tournaments with true blood all over.

but in the 1980's it became touch,slap and theatrics(similar to the sport karate olympic style now).

1980's open style and current "olympic" karate similarities:

- front leg kicks, reverse hook kicks to head with LEAD LEG and with TOES as impact scoring.

- Touch with strikes and TURN AROUND And raise your arm and look at the judges..lol

-specialist, only kata or only kumite competitors.

-jumping around and tapping your "gloves/hands"

-points are basically unlimited to win.

-weight divisions

-etc.. etc.. and etc..

-etc....

I agree with you! When I first encountered the slapping techniques as a score...I was befuddled, to say the least, because to me, and others, the slapping techniques lacked penetration, or the appearance of dynamic penetration. A hit was a hit and a slap was a slap, and a hit earned a point, while the slap shouldn't have. But, tournament arbitrators back then saw a way to make a slap worthy, and I believe that that was possible because the tourney was theirs to do with as they please. In that, a slapping technique became a point.

So, whenever I entered tourneys that amplified and encouraged the slapping techniques over the penetrative techniques, it was hard for me to adjust right away, and in that, I ended up being disqualified for the dynamic penetration as being a technique that lacked control, and that became a safety issue for that tourney.

Change is inevitable, but at times, not all changes are good, imho!!

You must have loved how competitors gained 4-6 inches of reach by stretching there "FOAM" century hand pads . classic.

[sensei8]

First of all Open tournaments in the 1970's was still hardcore with traditional and open styles competing in the same tournaments with true blood all over.

but in the 1980's it became touch,slap and theatrics(similar to the sport karate olympic style now).

1980's open style and current "olympic" karate similarities:

- front leg kicks, reverse hook kicks to head with LEAD LEG and with TOES as impact scoring.

- Touch with strikes and TURN AROUND And raise your arm and look at the judges..lol

-specialist, only kata or only kumite competitors.

-jumping around and tapping your "gloves/hands"

-points are basically unlimited to win.

-weight divisions

-etc.. etc.. and etc..

-etc....

I agree with you! When I first encountered the slapping techniques as a score...I was befuddled, to say the least, because to me, and others, the slapping techniques lacked penetration, or the appearance of dynamic penetration. A hit was a hit and a slap was a slap, and a hit earned a point, while the slap shouldn't have. But, tournament arbitrators back then saw a way to make a slap worthy, and I believe that that was possible because the tourney was theirs to do with as they please. In that, a slapping technique became a point.

So, whenever I entered tourneys that amplified and encouraged the slapping techniques over the penetrative techniques, it was hard for me to adjust right away, and in that, I ended up being disqualified for the dynamic penetration as being a technique that lacked control, and that became a safety issue for that tourney.

Change is inevitable, but at times, not all changes are good, imho!!

You must have loved how competitors gained 4-6 inches of reach by stretching there "FOAM" century hand pads . classic.

Yeah, that was equally upsetting. Anyway to get a point, but I mean, sheech!! Then the loud kiai that earned a point...man, oh man, I was expecting running out of bounds was the next way to earn a point!!

Let's forget about a clean and undeniable technique as the way of earning a point!!

[JR 137]

I got disillusioned with point fighting pretty quickly. 2 personal experiences that really stand out...

My opponent landed a hook kick to the side of my head. Controlled, not excessive contact, etc. Split second later I landed 2 or 3 punches in his ribs. I was awarded a full point. I even told the referee his landed first. We both looked at him, and he said "I saw that, but he didn't bring his kicking foot back down to where it started from." The three of us were very respectful about it all; there were no arguments. But seriously? What's more important, landing the technique under control or 'perfectly sticking your landing?' He came back down in a fighting stance. It's not gymnastics.

The second one was between a Yondan and sandan. The Yondan threw a ridgehand/haito coming down and stopped it about an inch from the collarbone. Perfect movement, execution, timing, etc. It should have been a video about how and when to throw it. Intentionally stopped it before contact. Result? Disqualified for an illegal technique. The sandan told the referee it didn't land. Both guys had a look of amazement on their faces, yet stayed very respectful.

There's a lot more ridiculous stuff in point fighting, but these two were the final straw for me. Both happened on the same day too. Maybe one of these days I'll compete again just to change things up, but I know I'll walk away asking myself "what was I thinking?"

[sensei8]

I got disillusioned with point fighting pretty quickly. 2 personal experiences that really stand out...

My opponent landed a hook kick to the side of my head. Controlled, not excessive contact, etc. Split second later I landed 2 or 3 punches in his ribs. I was awarded a full point. I even told the referee his landed first. We both looked at him, and he said "I saw that, but he didn't bring his kicking foot back down to where it started from." The three of us were very respectful about it all; there were no arguments. But seriously? What's more important, landing the technique under control or 'perfectly sticking your landing?' He came back down in a fighting stance. It's not gymnastics.

The second one was between a Yondan and sandan. The Yondan threw a ridgehand/haito coming down and stopped it about an inch from the collarbone. Perfect movement, execution, timing, etc. It should have been a video about how and when to throw it. Intentionally stopped it before contact. Result? Disqualified for an illegal technique. The sandan told the referee it didn't land. Both guys had a look of amazement on their faces, yet stayed very respectful.

There's a lot more ridiculous stuff in point fighting, but these two were the final straw for me. Both happened on the same day too. Maybe one of these days I'll compete again just to change things up, but I know I'll walk away asking myself "what was I thinking?"

I've always blamed the Arbitrator of the tourney for how a tourney is conducted...good or bad or indifferent!!

The Arbitrator sets the tone, and I've been an Arbitrator before, and the tone I set was totally opposite of what you've experienced...clean techniques, controlled techniques...are encouraged all around. If a technique left no doubt as to the validity of the technique, and it scored first...POINT!!

Arbitrators aren't suppose to be trying to make "friends", but to be that observer who's overseeing everything in a conscience and consistent manner without ambiguity and/or reservation!!

[RAM18]

Its been said in some ways but what you have here is the general issue with Karate these days.

The Sport vs Traditional debate.

In sport karate your goal is to score point and get more than the opponent. Therefore to leave doubt that you have scored can defeat your objective.

When we spar we are told a loud confident Kiai will normally be enough but that is the goal to leave no doubt.

In traditional karate i would agree waving arms and shouting is offensive. In fact from what i have heard in Japanese culture waving or arms and voice raising is generally considered aggressive and rude.

It sounds like your guest Sensei is very much a sport karate competitor who forgoes the tradition of the art. ...