Kata - taikyoku series...

[sensei8]

On balance, I have always believed a karate session should involve a degree of conditioning. The conditioning should be related to karate techniques, so that students can find over-laps between conditioning and application of karate technique. So I would argue that someone who does not engage in well-directed conditioning lacks as much knowledge as the sensei who engages in too much, but well-intentioned, conditioning with little obvious overlaps with karate technique.

I would also argue that conditioning is indivisible from karate, and broadly the martial arts. A skilled teacher should be able to demonstrate how to condition yourself, and direct you in your conditioning; to neglect this area of knowledge is to neglect karate itself.

Furthermore; it is a case of differing measuring sticks; Kyokushin has an emphasis on full-contact fighting, and without sufficient conditioning one will never be able to engage in full-contact safely or skilfully. So if you are an instructor and demanding this of your students, is it not right for you to present to them the tools they need to pass the tests you set. A similar argument can be made for sports driven expressions of karate.

To be fair; if one is attending a lesson, then one should learn something new each time one attends. However, a karate session is not just a lesson, it is training, and a good teacher should be involved in preparing you for the tests they have in place. Also, one could argue the dojo should be for training in ways one cannot train alone in.

I would say at the end that nothing is the responsibility of the club or the sensei; it is all on the student to make best use of what is offered.

Anyway, this is miles off topic now so return to differences in the Pinan/Heian series.

Having considered the matter further, I would argue that Japanese schools in their interpretation of the Pinan place much greater emphasis on full-body power through momentum and suffer a bit from one stance fits all. I suspect this is the influence of Kendo and Judo on the early students of Karate in Japan. In Judo one wishes to maintain a solid base, and a low center of gravity, and in Kendo you are trained to commit to the stroke of the blade. Conversely, Okinawan karate rarely performs more than one technique in the same stance, and places greater emphasis on the hips and alignment of the body to generate power. So in broad terms, between Japanese schools you will find similar broad themes, and will only really found changes in certain waza. However, if going from an Okinawan to a Japanese school, or vice-versa, you will find many more differences.

Solid point!!

[pers]

On balance, I have always believed a karate session should involve a degree of conditioning. The conditioning should be related to karate techniques, so that students can find over-laps between conditioning and application of karate technique. So I would argue that someone who does not engage in well-directed conditioning lacks as much knowledge as the sensei who engages in too much, but well-intentioned, conditioning with little obvious overlaps with karate technique.

I would also argue that conditioning is indivisible from karate, and broadly the martial arts. A skilled teacher should be able to demonstrate how to condition yourself, and direct you in your conditioning; to neglect this area of knowledge is to neglect karate itself.

Most karate students spend about 3 classes per week of about 90 minutes to 120 minutes per class ,some even less about 2 classes per week .

This is a very small amount of time to try and learn skills of karate ,if you spend most of this time doing boot camp training then you will lose valuable time learning the skills of karate or any other martial arts .

So why would this be considered as lack of knowledge to concentrate more on teaching karate techniques and concepts rather that getting students to do 100 push ups and seat ups etc.. ?!

A good teacher can give guidelines on how to do this extra conditioning outside dojo but doing it in the valuable short time the students are in the class who have come to learn karate is wasting the time they can practice karate and do it with partner .

A 5 minutes warm up and 5 minutes cool down at the end of the class and maybe a couple of minutes during the class to do some stretching and maybe some push ups is all we did during our classes ,lets not forget doing karate itself is conditioning the body as well ,kihon ,kata and kumite are all part of conditioning the body and also polishing our techniques and improving them .

karate is a skill that requires many years of practice to master ,if you spend half of your dojo time doing boot camp training it will take you longer to master it but given that you will be less skillful karateka but very fit due to boot camp training but you will get beaten by a more skillful karateka who spend his dojo time concentrating on karate techniques .

you know the old saying : To master any skill or art you need to spend about 10,000 hours of practice , so it easy to work out what I am talking about here.

Edited September 2, 2015 by pers

[Wado Heretic]

I understand your stance, but I respectfully disagree. Also, doing an incessant amount of push-ups or other generic exercises, would fall under what I referred to as well intentioned, but as an example of conditioning with little obvious overlaps with karate technique. It has it's time and place, but I would concur that such a place is not in the Dojo.

Rather, I am referring to conditioning you cannot perform alone, and that has direct relation to karate techniques. For example such training methods as Ude Tanden; which are invaluable for developing proper karate technique, but require a partner. There are also specific methods for training in karate, using tools or just your own body weight, which require the over-sight of an experienced eye, even if only just for a beginning student.

Performing karate techniques is in of itself a form of conditioning; however, as with all exercises, it loses it's potency over time once one has conditioned themselves to a certain level. Informed, and guided methods of conditioning allow a teacher to push him or her self, and their students. One learns nothing through repetition, only through adversity.

[sensei8]

Imagine to try to include in your class structure time of the warm up that Mario Higaonna Sensei does...it's 45 minutes long, but quite thorough!! Especially in todays model of classes lasting 45 minutes to an hour long!

[Wado Heretic]

I have committed whole lessons to Hojo Undo because of people asking me how to work out.

However, a valid point; how far does one take the conditioning element before one is not teaching technique. Yet, perhaps this is a discussion for another topic. We have somewhat escaped the orbit of the Taikyoku Kata.

[Hawkmoon]

I have committed whole lessons to Hojo Undo because of people asking me how to work out.

However, a valid point; how far does one take the conditioning element before one is not teaching technique. Yet, perhaps this is a discussion for another topic. We have somewhat escaped the orbit of the Taikyoku Kata.

"Taikyoku" means 'Wide view', they are kata taught to create a basis for fluid movement like 'Pinan' (Hian) kata you are moving from one stance/position executing this or that strike or kick.

Many look at kata (no matter the ryu) as a set sequence of movements in response to an imaginary attack or ongoing battle, maybe war, for some maybe many this is true, I like this idea of kata, but... I much prefer the idea that what many over look in kata, any kata is multiple battles demonstrated indervidually one at a time.

The kata is offering the practitioner the basic actions for an attack or defence, its upto the artist to explore more of the Bunkai of the movement, the kata.

Consider Mai Gedan bari, the first movement in Taikyoku Sono Ichi.

Mai - front or forward

Gedan - lower section

Bari - parry (block is close but not truly correct)

http://karatetest.com/kyokushinkai/10thkyu.php

 

A truly awesome site (FYI: the owner is happy share) that lists Kyohushin Kihon in 'Flash' format.

 

The basic application of this technique is to 'parry' a punch or maybe a kick to the side.

The arm sweeps past the body in a downward motion pushing the strike or kick past you as it comes in, think of the activity like aikido, to use the force/power of the attack/opponent against them.

That's it right? nothing more to be got from this correct?

Anyone see the throw away of the enemy?

The attack from behind?

What about the neck break use of Mai Gedan bari?

I like to see and so consider kata movement/demonstration of kihon as each action or step is its own combination/battle ... bunkai.

So to go back to Taikyoku Sono Ichi ...

The first movements to the left are (to me) the basic parry and step forward strike.

Then the turn around, a throw away of attacker one, step through and punch attacker two.

Stepping turning left, parry an attack, now advance attacking an attacker, maybe more (attack, attack, attack) (3x punches = 3x attackers!!)

Turning to the right is maybe another throw away and strike, maybe this is the neck break and strike!

and so on......

Taikyoku Sono Ichi is not such a basic kata now, it has depth, it has meaning in its ease and simple movement, all done fluidly and clean...

[muttley]

I have committed whole lessons to Hojo Undo because of people asking me how to work out.

However, a valid point; how far does one take the conditioning element before one is not teaching technique. Yet, perhaps this is a discussion for another topic. We have somewhat escaped the orbit of the Taikyoku Kata.

"Taikyoku" means 'Wide view', they are kata taught to create a basis for fluid movement like 'Pinan' (Hian) kata you are moving from one stance/position executing this or that strike or kick.

Many look at kata (no matter the ryu) as a set sequence of movements in response to an imaginary attack or ongoing battle, maybe war, for some maybe many this is true, I like this idea of kata, but... I much prefer the idea that what many over look in kata, any kata is multiple battles demonstrated indervidually one at a time.

The kata is offering the practitioner the basic actions for an attack or defence, its upto the artist to explore more of the Bunkai of the movement, the kata.

Consider Mai Gedan bari, the first movement in Taikyoku Sono Ichi.

Mai - front or forward

Gedan - lower section

Bari - parry (block is close but not truly correct)

http://karatetest.com/kyokushinkai/10thkyu.php

 

A truly awesome site (FYI: the owner is happy share) that lists Kyohushin Kihon in 'Flash' format.

 

The basic application of this technique is to 'parry' a punch or maybe a kick to the side.

The arm sweeps past the body in a downward motion pushing the strike or kick past you as it comes in, think of the activity like aikido, to use the force/power of the attack/opponent against them.

That's it right? nothing more to be got from this correct?

Anyone see the throw away of the enemy?

The attack from behind?

What about the neck break use of Mai Gedan bari?

I like to see and so consider kata movement/demonstration of kihon as each action or step is its own combination/battle ... bunkai.

So to go back to Taikyoku Sono Ichi ...

The first movements to the left are (to me) the basic parry and step forward strike.

Then the turn around, a throw away of attacker one, step through and punch attacker two.

Stepping turning left, parry an attack, now advance attacking an attacker, maybe more (attack, attack, attack) (3x punches = 3x attackers!!)

Turning to the right is maybe another throw away and strike, maybe this is the neck break and strike!

and so on......

Taikyoku Sono Ichi is not such a basic kata now, it has depth, it has meaning in its ease and simple movement, all done fluidly and clean...

Very solid points there, I like the interpretation.

When I learnt Shotokan Kata, I very much looked at is as purely a set of movements, now I am learning Kyokushin Kata, I am intending on learning them in a different manner.

[Hawkmoon]

Cool!!

Enjoy the experimenting!

A Shihan I respect a great deal opened my eyes to the idea of 'more than one', he simply describes the use of kihon by reminding 'us' to look at it from 360 degrees.

So the mai gedan bari a basic block I was taught (years ago) as a 'front' facing block suddenly has other uses.. huh! the neck break use for example was a eureka moment when it was demonstrated to me truly was!!

So now when I look at kata I see the kihon first then an opponent and (maybe in my mind or the dojo) I walk around them doing the kihon in 360 degrees to see what can be done.

Look at Shuto Mawashi uke (in kokutsu dachi), a technique that was described to me years ago as a traditional movement and not much use or value today, its a parry or leg catch followed by a 'throw away' into a ready fight stance!

Now think of it in terms of judo or Ju-jitsu, the leg catch is more like a leg and body scoop, the throw away is now throw to the ground (head first maybe).

What about if its a parry, simply sweeping the attack to the side, are the arms at the end of the movement just making you ready to continue fighting?

What about a strike! Shuto Sakotsu Uchi or .... !

To simply do kata is not enough, it has to be studied and explored to be learnt correctly!

I maybe a new shodan now, but all that means is 'first grade', I've not reached the top of the training cycle, all it means is I've taken the first step and reached level 1 now I start to learn.

[muttley]

I am looking forward to training tonight (and sincerely thankful that I got out of work on time so I can train).

Hopefully, if it is another 1-1 session, we can look into the kata in more depth. I know I am a novice as far a Kyokushin goes, but the "basic" understanding of the Kata is there and I would love to be given the opportunity to start looking at it differently already.

[Hawkmoon]

Regarding conditioning ....

When training 'conditioning' in our dojo its something we consciously decide to do that night, but to be clear we decide to do conditioning as in we decide to focus more on 'it' than we normally do!

In the dojo we do fight heavy 50% and upwards all the time, hence when we decide to do 'conditioning' we focus on parts of the body and work them/that part, at what ever 'weight' the person being hit asks for!

Its done in repetition terms, rather than a half dozen monster hits!

Thigh kicks (Gedan Mawashi geri) done for 2-3 mins, same leg. Both parties get a work out, the target get used to pain and sustained impact and so on, the other builds muscle memory and strength executing the kick.

Punches, are driven by the same logic, repetition!

I personally kick walls (much the annoyance of the wife) doing Mai geri working from gedan to chudan.

Look at it this way, conditioning is a way of teaching the mind as well as the body about pain and in doing that you/we overcome the fear that as a human we naturally have built into us. (Its in our genetic code!)

We fear pain its normal, conditioning is a mental discipline to combat it, the more familiar/aware of it you are the less impact it has on you.

Pain hurts, it will always hurt, it is meant to hurt, that's the point its how we work, but conditioning builds the mental strength to combat that human reaction and allows you to control your reaction to deal with it in a more controlled manner.

Get a Makawari board, or even a towel on a fence post and punch over and over again, kick a wall over and over again, not 100% not monster power, just enough to 'hit' it,, keep in mind that you will repeat that action say 10 times, then work on that and one day goto 20 and so on and on.

Have the wife the kicks kick your legs, punch your gut...its all the same, don't need a belt to get hit, and I'm sure the kids will love the idea...get board ... eventually and you'll need to work on that in the dojo, but you get the idea!

Conditioning is a marathon not a sprint!