Kata - taikyoku series...

[muttley]

Good evening everyone. I spoke to my Sensei last night about the grading syllabus (to think, I initially started training again just to train, now I have ambition and want to go up through the grades....I've only been training for a few weeks!)

Anyway, my sensei explained that the grading syllabus is being revised at the moment but showed me the old one, to my amazement there is no kata required until 3/4th grading. I noted that in this new style I am training in, there is a lot more emphasis in fitness and conditioning (entire fitness part to the grading - press-ups, squats and sit-ups etc) which is no bad thing and probably the kick up the backside I need to sort my fitness out!

Anyway, sensei did ask me if I could remember any kata from my shotokan days, I can remember everythign from Kihon Kata up to Bassai Dai which apparently is going to be useful.

The kata my new style do appear to be Taikyoku (which Taikyoku Sono Ichi appears to be Kihon Kata to me), then moving on to the Pinan series.

Are there any major differences between the Pinan and Heian series kata or is it mainly a few differences in stances?

I really have caught the bug again and can't wait to sit my first grade (I feel like I am already grasping the concepts of this new style and it is showing in my confidence and fitness levels...they are slowly rising nicely!) I am reading loads of martial arts books again and totally engrossing myself in this again, I sense a completely new me in the near future.

Ossu

[Wado Heretic]

I could not really answer your question without some information on what the style you are training in now is. However, if it uses the Taikyoku and the Pinan, it is probably derived from the teachings of Funakoshi. They are the same kata, just by a different name. I would say of the Heian that they omit some techniques that are found in the Pi'an kata as propagated by Chibana O-Sensei, and the Pinan as taught by Mabuni Kenwa, but the Heian also have certain additional techniques not found in other versions.

[muttley]

I am nowstudying aform derived from kyokushin. Very much held in kyokushin routes to be fair.

[Wado Heretic]

If I recall correctly, then the Pinan of Kyokushinkai follows the same numbering system as the Heian: Pinan Sono Ichi will be the equivalent of Heian Shodan. In most systems Pinan Shodan is usually the equivalent of Heian Nidan, and Heian Shodan the equivalent of Pinan Nidan. So that should save you a bit of a headache.

Oyama was a product of post-war Shotokan, in other words what became JKA Shotokan, but also Goju Kai. So you will find the embusen and order of techniques to be very similar , however, you might notice the influence of his Goju Ryu studies on how some techniques are performed and of course the stances. I would say keep the Heian in mind as they will be useful as a map, but treat it as a map that's fallen out of date; put it aside when it comes to getting directions from the locals as it were.

[muttley]

If I recall correctly, then the Pinan of Kyokushinkai follows the same numbering system as the Heian: Pinan Sono Ichi will be the equivalent of Heian Shodan. In most systems Pinan Shodan is usually the equivalent of Heian Nidan, and Heian Shodan the equivalent of Pinan Nidan. So that should save you a bit of a headache.

Oyama was a product of post-war Shotokan, in other words what became JKA Shotokan, but also Goju Kai. So you will find the embusen and order of techniques to be very similar , however, you might notice the influence of his Goju Ryu studies on how some techniques are performed and of course the stances. I would say keep the Heian in mind as they will be useful as a map, but treat it as a map that's fallen out of date; put it aside when it comes to getting directions from the locals as it were.

Ossu, many thanks

[sensei8]

Are there any major differences between the Pinan and Heian series kata or is it mainly a few differences in stances?

Any differences, imho, are nominal, at best!! The differences are quaint, yet suttle, and just about so easily discerned by practitioners no matter the knowledge/experience.

In Shindokan, we train in the Taikyoku Shodan, Taikyoku Nidan, and finally, Taikyoku Sandan. Our Taikyoku series is a prerequisite to the Pinan Series, whereas in other styles, the Taikyoku series is sprinkled within the Kyu ranks, and at rare times, I've seen Taikyoku Sandan in the Shodan curriculum.

[LastKing]

Personally, and it is only personal opinion, I don't like emphasis on fitness over karate itself. I'm lucky in that I have time to keep myself fit (I understand a lot of people do not), but I don't like the amount of time we spend in our club doing pushup and sit ups and so forth. I'd rather be getting my exercise, if I have to get it during the karate class, sparring or doing kata.

Sorry if I'm reading your post wrong, and I know it's kind of off topic a bit, but for me, fitness is the responsibility of the student, not the club. Like I said, though, I'm lucky to have time to train ouside of club hours.

[JR 137]

Personally, and it is only personal opinion, I don't like emphasis on fitness over karate itself. I'm lucky in that I have time to keep myself fit (I understand a lot of people do not), but I don't like the amount of time we spend in our club doing pushup and sit ups and so forth. I'd rather be getting my exercise, if I have to get it during the karate class, sparring or doing kata.

Sorry if I'm reading your post wrong, and I know it's kind of off topic a bit, but for me, fitness is the responsibility of the student, not the club. Like I said, though, I'm lucky to have time to train ouside of club hours.

I fully agree. However, Kyokushin is very heavy on fitness to reach their goals. They have specific requirements of knuckle push-ups, fingertip push-ups, squats, and so on for each rank - kyu and dan level. This goes hand and hand with the number of opponents faced in full contact kumite for each rank.

I've always kind of viewed push-ups and sit-ups during class as filler or time wasting stuff, but I get it. It's pretty hard to argue with the Kyokushin mentality when it comes to standards of fitness, stamina and kumite requirements.

The OP is studying what appears to be a very close spinoff of Kyokushin. Kyokushin probably has a heavier emphasis on full contact kumite than any other traditional organization. With the emphasis on that, it's a no-brainer to make strength and endurance training part of the formal curriculum.

[pers]

Personally, and it is only personal opinion, I don't like emphasis on fitness over karate itself. I'm lucky in that I have time to keep myself fit (I understand a lot of people do not), but I don't like the amount of time we spend in our club doing pushup and sit ups and so forth. I'd rather be getting my exercise, if I have to get it during the karate class, sparring or doing kata.

Sorry if I'm reading your post wrong, and I know it's kind of off topic a bit, but for me, fitness is the responsibility of the student, not the club. Like I said, though, I'm lucky to have time to train ouside of club hours.

Agreed... My sensei always told us dojo time is for karate practice. He said treat dojo class like university lecture where you are given a lecture and put it in practice and then take these ideas and practice some more in your own time.

He said if you want to get fit go and join a gym!

Any fitness training should be done in your own time, the ones that emphasise more in fitness training do so to compensate for their lack of knowledge in Karate.

[Wado Heretic]

On balance, I have always believed a karate session should involve a degree of conditioning. The conditioning should be related to karate techniques, so that students can find over-laps between conditioning and application of karate technique. So I would argue that someone who does not engage in well-directed conditioning lacks as much knowledge as the sensei who engages in too much, but well-intentioned, conditioning with little obvious overlaps with karate technique.

I would also argue that conditioning is indivisible from karate, and broadly the martial arts. A skilled teacher should be able to demonstrate how to condition yourself, and direct you in your conditioning; to neglect this area of knowledge is to neglect karate itself.

Furthermore; it is a case of differing measuring sticks; Kyokushin has an emphasis on full-contact fighting, and without sufficient conditioning one will never be able to engage in full-contact safely or skilfully. So if you are an instructor and demanding this of your students, is it not right for you to present to them the tools they need to pass the tests you set. A similar argument can be made for sports driven expressions of karate.

To be fair; if one is attending a lesson, then one should learn something new each time one attends. However, a karate session is not just a lesson, it is training, and a good teacher should be involved in preparing you for the tests they have in place. Also, one could argue the dojo should be for training in ways one cannot train alone in.

I would say at the end that nothing is the responsibility of the club or the sensei; it is all on the student to make best use of what is offered.

Anyway, this is miles off topic now so return to differences in the Pinan/Heian series.

Having considered the matter further, I would argue that Japanese schools in their interpretation of the Pinan place much greater emphasis on full-body power through momentum and suffer a bit from one stance fits all. I suspect this is the influence of Kendo and Judo on the early students of Karate in Japan. In Judo one wishes to maintain a solid base, and a low center of gravity, and in Kendo you are trained to commit to the stroke of the blade. Conversely, Okinawan karate rarely performs more than one technique in the same stance, and places greater emphasis on the hips and alignment of the body to generate power. So in broad terms, between Japanese schools you will find similar broad themes, and will only really found changes in certain waza. However, if going from an Okinawan to a Japanese school, or vice-versa, you will find many more differences.