shotokan stances in kumite/real fight

[DaveB]

I am aware of the Niju-kun "Formal stances are for beginners; later, one stands naturally."

In my own understanding, I understand it as formal stances are taught in Kihon and Kata since the beginning for training, to establish muscle memory and to strengthen the muscles, joints and bones, neuromuscular connections so that as time and more training passes by it would be like a second nature of yours to move in such stances effectively thus "stands naturally".

Yeah, that's not right.

Shotokan traditionalists love to try and twist things around to justify their own practices, but actually Funakoshi was saying, "when you stop being a beginner you should stop doing long stances."

He never did long stances, no Okinawan did. They were a modernisation to make karate easier for Japanese who often had kendo backgrounds.

Gigo Funakoshi also liked the idea of adding load to his training, i,e, mnaking life harder in training so it would be easier in reality. The trouble is no one got around to teaching the JKA first gen that next step, so it never changed.

If you are a beginner though, none of that matters. do your long stances, get strong legs and learn to move as quickly as you can like that. What you do when you're not a beginner anymore (not something that usually happens in Shotokan schools), is up to you.

As to why don't senior karateka don't use the idealised stances in sparring/competition? Because as I said above, they never learned what applied karate was supposed to be like, so the fighting style of "traditional" Shotokan evolved in a vacuum.

If you have the base of long stances, kendo fighting strategies and tactics and someone else trying to hit you who will stop after one solid blow, over time you end up with Shotokan kumite.

That is not a put down. There is nothing wrong with that style of fighting except that it is a little incomplete because it exists for competition. Boxing is just as incomplete for the same reasons. But the question you asked will soon be followed by, "how come I almost never see back stance in sparring but spend half my kata time walking in it?". More similar questions will follow and the only true answer that gets to the heart of it is that the seniors of Shotokan were not fully taught karateka because cultural revolution, war, death and change happened.

They did their best with what they had and they filled the needs of their students as they saw them. What more can you ask of a senior karate instructor.

[sensei8]

I think conceptually you are making a mistake and I'm surprised no one else has picked up on this. The principle it to move and shift your body mass to maximise power into your techniques and/or apply mechanical advantage from gripping range.

Basically stances are an end position of a motion, not something you should stand in. Think of them as a freeze frame of the follow through position. Front stance is about dropping your weight forward; horse stance, dropping your weight down etc.

Learning good form for stances etc is important, but don't lose sight that they are there to improve movement.

Solid post!!

As in anything MA, the end makes the technique, no matter what it might be.

[DaveB]

I think conceptually you are making a mistake and I'm surprised no one else has picked up on this. The principle it to move and shift your body mass to maximise power into your techniques and/or apply mechanical advantage from gripping range.

Basically stances are an end position of a motion, not something you should stand in. Think of them as a freeze frame of the follow through position. Front stance is about dropping your weight forward; horse stance, dropping your weight down etc.

Learning good form for stances etc is important, but don't lose sight that they are there to improve movement.

I agree with the above but would add a couple of points:

The key point of stances for me is the alignment of your body in order to apply weight. Once you master the alignment of each stance, the length of your stance is irrelevant. You will shift your weight correctly from a natural (ordering a drink in a bar) stance just as effectively as in a long dojo stance.

The second point is that the transitions are more important only when thinking of fighting with distance. Once the fight becomes contact based with an element of control and wrestling, then stance and balance become important in their own right.

[sensei8]

Hey look...the trees are getting in the way of the forest...again...I hate it when that happens!!

Sorry, in all seriousness, the natural fighting "stance" is still a "stance", no matter its relationship context. This natural fighting "stance" is a soft relaxed beginning of what is to come.

In Shindokan, we, for the most part, start up-right and relaxed, and when the time dictates the exact moment, I move, and when that movement ends, I'm in a formal stance because that's a vital part of any given technique.

We don't hover above the ground, waiting for the appropriate time to engage, while still hovering above, thusly ending the engage, and still...hovering. I suppose then, if I could hover, I won't worry too much about proper stance alignment and orientation.

[pers]

I think conceptually you are making a mistake and I'm surprised no one else has picked up on this. The principle it to move and shift your body mass to maximise power into your techniques and/or apply mechanical advantage from gripping range.

Basically stances are an end position of a motion, not something you should stand in. Think of them as a freeze frame of the follow through position. Front stance is about dropping your weight forward; horse stance, dropping your weight down etc.

Learning good form for stances etc is important, but don't lose sight that they are there to improve movement.

You explain this very well , this is the what the aim is .

I found that my karate training helped me in other sports too ,like playing tennis or football or basketball .

I scored a goal playing football by using a back stance , a classic shotokan back stance .

I redirected a shot from a team mate that was going wide of a goal by changing direction and going into a back stance allowing the ball to hit the inside of my foot pointing at the goal and the ball flew off my foot past a frozen keeper , and I was just inside the box ...some distance from goal .

[Titanium]

In real fighting, a shallow stance is useful, Shotokan uses long, deep stances which can be more difficult to move in than a shorter stance.

In real fighting, you will need to adapt the stances for the situation and environment.

[Titanium]

Wado has short stances and I find these more effective, they are not as string though.

That's one beauty of doing Wado and Shotokan; I can mix and match certain things like stances to suit different needs.

[bushido_man96]

I think conceptually you are making a mistake and I'm surprised no one else has picked up on this. The principle it to move and shift your body mass to maximise power into your techniques and/or apply mechanical advantage from gripping range.

Basically stances are an end position of a motion, not something you should stand in. Think of them as a freeze frame of the follow through position. Front stance is about dropping your weight forward; horse stance, dropping your weight down etc.

Learning good form for stances etc is important, but don't lose sight that they are there to improve movement.

I agree. Stances are transitional, and their use is in the transition from beginning to end, not just the end. Ideally, when you begin to apply techniques more in self-defense, you will start in a more natural position, do a technique or series of techniques in which you will transition through positions that are similar to your stances, and then you will likely finish in a more natural stance, as opposed to a rigid front stance or horse stance.

I also think part of the issue of the long, deep, rigid stances in basics and forms has to do with the aesthetics that have developed in the performance of forms, especially due to tournament performances. They look good, and that is part of what some of the more traditional style has become, especially in line with the "personal development" aspect of the training.

Hopefully, these differences will start to be explained to you as you advance in your training.

[Th0mas]

In real fighting, a shallow stance is useful, Shotokan uses long, deep stances which can be more difficult to move in than a shorter stance.

In real fighting, you will need to adapt the stances for the situation and environment.

Apologies if I have taken your comment out of context, But Yes and no.

Your response worried me, as it should be irrelevant whether you practice Wado or shotokan. It reminds me of the old debate about form over function. The length of stance is a stylised thing, the function of shifting stance should be the same for both styles ( except for a few rare cases where the emphasis is different (for example, cat stance vs back stance, where the intention is to kick off the front leg rather than dropping your weight backwards).

When I am in the dojo and part of a class I am not instructing, I try not to focus on the stance, but focus on the movement. This is a conceptual thing that you should always keep in mind when training, especially during the "kihon" or formal line training phase of a training session. This is less important in partner training, which is much more outcome focussed, as you have a real target to overcome with less chance of over emphasising the "look of the thing" which is a common problem when practicing air techniques

It's all about context. You might train in a style that practices long stances or short stances but it is how you apply the motion that is important. Great foot work and blocking technique is essential at long range but pretty irrelevant at close range - crash, control and dominate - should be the priority in this case. Drive through your opponent, use your body mass for unbalancing and disruption. The value of stance work focussed on the movement really becomes obvious at close range. Some karate styles seem more geared to this, such as goju, but as a shotokan guy, I feel the need prioritise what I do away from Shorokans natural tendency to think of fighting as a long range thing.

Apologies for the diatribe, I may be teaching you to suck eggs, but I think it is worth labouring the point for others.

Cheers

Tom

[sensei8]

In time, stances become nothing more than a stance; no thought giving to it whatsoever, as it should be. Stances are set up as they're suppose to in their length, width, height, and posture, and in that, one can feel it's proper movement is as it should be.