shotokan stances in kumite/real fight

[handsandfeetassword]

Good day to all, please tolerate me for what I am going to ask or need clarification into because I am still a beginner yet I am willing to learn and to be corrected if needed so.

so to start, I am a karate practitioner(just started for 3 months already), under a branch of Japan Karate Association, Shotokan Karate,

So, as i have observed in our classes, in Kihon and Kata, we were taught to use those deep, long, rigid stances as with the ideal position as possible(zenkutsu dachi, kokutsu dachi and such) as expected in shotokan karate, but during our Kumite drills, we were taught on how to move in kumite and what bothers me is that, why are the stances use in kumite not as deep, long, rigid stances as in kihon or kata? for example why use a like a shorter and higher version of zenkutsu dachi with the back knee bent, or why use a much lower but shorter version of zenkutsu dachi as such the back knee almost touches the floor being bent, sometimes its like punching almost standing, is that still considered a correct form or shotokan karate? it confuses me, it like its far from the ideal stances being taught, can someone enlighten me with this?

due to curiosity, I try to watch some videos of JKA kumite tournaments(I have observed that they use the modified stances as well yet still scores a point, thus considered a correct form?) and MMA(Lyoto Machida bouts, well known Shotokan JKA practitioner in UFC), and still I have observed just as the same as we are drilled in our kumite, its not as the ideal forms of the stances as use in kihon and kata, but a modified one

so i came up with the question

so can someone explain this to me why in kumite/real fights the stances are somehow modified compared to kihon/kata stances? Is that still considered to be a correct form of Shotokan Karate? and also how do I apply the stances I learned in Kihon and Kata to Kumite/real fight? How do I know even if its stance form is still considered/tolerable to called as "with proper form" stance? why the ideal deep, long, rigid stances in karate not use in kumite?

As of now, I just do what my sensei teaches me do the proper form and stance in kihon and kata and do a somehow modified form of stances in kumite just the way he showed it to me, we'll since

Im still a beginner I know nothing.... but I am aware of the Niju-kun "Formal stances are for beginners; later, one stands naturally."

In my own understanding, I understand it as formal stances are taught in Kihon and Kata since the beginning for training, to establish muscle memory and to strengthen the muscles, joints and bones, neuromuscular connections so that as time and more training passes by it would be like a second nature of yours to move in such stances effectively thus "stands naturally" but why does in the professional kumite(JKA tournaments) they use a modified stance rather than the ideal/formal ones, taught in Kihon and Kata? also, if needed so I need to be corrected of my understanding, please correct me, politely if possible and maybe you can try to relate that niju kun for the reason of differences of stances in kata/kihon and kumite.

whoever will teach me or correct me or answers my question in advance, I'd like to say Thank you in advance, and Good Day Again

Pictures and videos in regards the topic is greatly appreciated

[muttley]

When I trained in Shotokan (a good few years ago now), I also had a similar question. Recently I have been listening to podcasts by Iain Abernethy and others and Iain has a very good answer to your question.

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/my-stance-stances

In my mind, the "basics" or Kihon in Shotokan is done in formal stances, zenkutsu-dachi, kokutsu-dachi etc in order to get the student to understand the principles of shifting body weight, ie how to move your body weight forwards and backwards.

Now, I have changed style to one derived from Kyokushin, I have started this style as a novice (from a Shodan grade in Shotokan). This style teaches their kihon to novices in a fighting stance with short movements, teaching students to generate power in a different way to how Shotokan does. Onces a student has "mastered" this, they move onto kihon/basics as Shotokan teaches it.

I hope this helps in some way.

[Spodo Komodo]

There is a theory that extreme versions of natural stances build strong legs. There is also the idea that it is difficult to move from one stance to another in these extremes so the feeling is exaggerated and from that the student learns to minimise the effort needed, creating a more efficient movement. Without the amplification of feeling caused by deeper stances this learning process is supposedly more difficult to get right. Having done some Shotokan in early life all I can say is that my knees feel they have learned their lesson...

[sensei8]

Watch a JKA Kumite, match, like on YouTube, for example, and you'll see them in a Fighting Stance, a more upright stance, but when they execute technique, they'll transition into the more formal stances. Those Shotokan practitioners that I've crossed trained with for many years will do the same very thing...fighting stance, then formal stance at the technique.

[Kanku65]

Primarily the long deep stances are for development.

Learning the hard way in a sense.

And as Sensei8 said, if you watch JKA style kumite, participants stay in a short relaxed stance, until the right moment when they shift into a deep stance for nice power generation.

Youtube has some incredible JKA kumite videos BTW.

[pers]

First of all welcome to the site and good luck with your shotokan training and studies .

you kind of answered yourself at the bottom of your post , training in kihon in deeper stances prepare your body to learn to move efficiently forward ,backwards ,sideways ,conditioning your muscles ,ankles and joints .

similar to wearing ankle weights that one uses for conditioning and strentgh training but you take them off when you go into a match be it karate or football or basketball.

Even as a dan grade one needs to do this kihon training to condition their body ,maybe not as much as a beginner karateka has to but even senior grades need to do it .

Stances are transitional ,never static in free fighting ,at the point of delivering a technique you might go deeper for an instant as other posters mentioned here .

if you belong to a bonafide school of shotokan and train under a competent instructor then trust their wisdom and keep at it and like my signature says "never give up ! " ,,your efforts will be paid back handsomely .

[Wasp]

That's a great question to ask in my opinion, it shows that you're thinking about what you're doing! Keep it up!

[wildbourgman]

Precept Number 17 from Gichin Funakoshi's TWENTY PRECEPTS

17. Beginners must master low stance and posture, natural body positions are for the advanced.

Deep stances are used in actual fighting even in other styles but you don't live in them.

[vantheman]

My views on the matter:

Low stances are a great way to build balance, power from the legs, muscle strength, ect.

It's also good to learn that you need to settle/sink your weight as you sink, or strike is just going to push you away from your target (i.e. pushing against wall). Your stance needs to be strong enough to withhold the force of your strike in order to do any significant damage with the strike.

It's good to sink when you strike, and it's good to build muscle memory with low stances. In kempo, we work in shallower stances, especially as you rise in rank.

As far as application of karate things to the street, I have found this YouTube Channel, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCayr5nz5sJRrOPT55CzOFxw to be helpful.

[Th0mas]

I think conceptually you are making a mistake and I'm surprised no one else has picked up on this. The principle it to move and shift your body mass to maximise power into your techniques and/or apply mechanical advantage from gripping range.

Basically stances are an end position of a motion, not something you should stand in. Think of them as a freeze frame of the follow through position. Front stance is about dropping your weight forward; horse stance, dropping your weight down etc.

Learning good form for stances etc is important, but don't lose sight that they are there to improve movement.