Should we leave our school or am I expecting too much

[MissTup]

I am so conflicted regarding pulling my child out of his current school and going somewhere else but I'm not sure if I'm just expecting too much so please set me straight. We have been there for a year, btw, my son is 8, and I feel like there is a lot of game playing and not much growth, focus, technique and respect being demonstrated. Some things that concern me - A lot of times I feel like the kids (8-10 years old) run the class and not the instructor. He does lots of games but then gets mad when they are loud and don't jump to attention immediately. Don't get me wrong, one of the reasons we started this is for attention/focus but when you create a game environment why are you getting mad for the kids playing along? He uses push-ups, jumping jacks for punishment and I've seen the same kid get 6 sessions of these in just the warm ups and he's been there as long as we have been. It's not working so why does the instructor persist? I don't feel like he corrects technique or really teaches it. He keeps telling them to get kicks higher but doesn't talk about the proper way to do them. One thing that really bothered me was at this last belt test. It was the class after the test when he usually gives the belts and he didn't mention anything. My child asked at the end of the class if he earned his belt. The instructor just said, "I don't know. Did you?" Next class, no belts or mention. My son asked again and he still gave the same casual/rude response. My son went home crying and just kept saying I am trying hard but I guess he doesn't see that. Well come to find out he didn't have the belts and they were back-ordered. So why not show respect to your students and tell them that. I felt like one of the things we are suppose to be focusing on here is showing respect for others and yourself and the instructor didn't extend that to the students. So set me straight. This is a tiny town and I can't go back if I stop. Is this normal, i.e., games, focus on repetition verses quality, etc. for a 8-10 year old class? Thanks

[sensei8]

Welcome to KF; glad that you're here!!

If I may, I'd like to address each of your concerns, as I seem them, and if I've missed one of your concerns, please forgive my oversight.

**WARNING** This post is lengthy, because I feel that your concerns deserve a thoughtful reply!!

I am so conflicted regarding pulling my child out of his current school and going somewhere else but I'm not sure if I'm just expecting too much so please set me straight.

As both a parent as well as a consumer/customer, you're not expecting too much. That's your right, and it should be treated with honor and respect. Your paying for a product/service, and you need to question anything that's not feeling quite right regarding any of your concerns with the CI [Chief Instructor] in his/her office. Always being respectful, while trying to understand a many of things, and your CI is the final word in the school, so direct your concerns with the CI asap. Imho, you're doing what's your given right as a parent as well as a consumer/customer.

We have been there for a year, btw, my son is 8, and I feel like there is a lot of game playing and not much growth, focus, technique and respect being demonstrated.

With you not being a MA instructor, you might not fully appreciate and/or understand why your 8 year old son, and the entire class is being conducted in the manner of which it is.

Before I continue, let me just say this...Not all black belts can, or should, teach; it takes a gift to teach, and it takes even more of a gift to teach children. Hence, some instructors ONLY teach adults, and other instructors ONLY teach kids, while other instructors will teach both adults and kids.

Teaching is a gift, and it takes more than wearing a black belt; it takes patience from both the instructor(s), as well as the parent/consumer. Next time you're at class, watch and see if what I've told you is starting to make some sense. Not all instructors, that CAN teach, teach the same way, and that's to be expected because people are different, so why can't instructors be different. I don't teach like my Sensei did, because I'm not my Sensei!!

Kids learn by playing. While the kids are playing, if the instructor is good, the kids will be learning the MA while they're playing. I play with my child students age appropriate games all of the time. However, MA techniques and the like only appear to be useless games, and that's because most parents/consumers don't exactly what's going on, and that's because the instructor is just that, and the parents/consumer are just that.

If your instructor didn't explain how your son and other students his age group are going to learn the MA, then your instructor missed a golden opportunity when you first sat down with him during the enrollment. I sit down with parents/consumers for as long as it might take to explain every single thing that will happen and how it will happen and why it will happen, and so on and so forth. By the time the meeting is over, the parents/consumers and the student(s) will be more prepared in what to expect.

Everyone, and I mean everyone is accountable, and imho, the CI is more accountable than anyone in that school. That CI must meet or exceed expectations of the student body as well as with the parents.

Growth, focus, technique and respect should be learnt through the manner of which the games are being played. The instructor needs to explain everything, and if for no other reason(s), to eliminate confusion for all concerned parties. You say that these staples aren't being demonstrated. That concerns me.

Growth, focus, techniques, and respect take times to develop because these attributes of the MA can't happen over night. Yet, you've been there for one year, and by then, those attributes should be surfacing at some notable measure, even for a parent who's NOT the instructor.

Some things that concern me - A lot of times I feel like the kids (8-10 years old) run the class and not the instructor. He does lots of games but then gets mad when they are loud and don't jump to attention immediately. Don't get me wrong, one of the reasons we started this is for attention/focus but when you create a game environment why are you getting mad for the kids playing along?

If the instructor in question is worth his/her salt, trust me, the kids aren't running anything. I don't know what "gets mad" means. Screaming in anger/frustration, well, that instructor is dead wrong. Sometimes, a barking instructor is necessary to get and keep the attention of the class, and yes, kids will hit overdrive faster than adults especially when playing games. Why? Kids will be kids, and they get more excited and they just can't put their brakes on that fast like an adult can. When I was a child, I did childish things. But when I became a man, I casted away my childish ways. Again, kids will be kids.

Even when I'm on the floor teaching a kids class, and we're playing a game, the kids will get so charged up about what they're doing, they forget themselves for a moment, and I have to bring them back to Earth so that we can continue or end whatever it is that we're involved in at the moment. "YAME"/"STOP", delivered in a manner that speaks of urgency but not in a manner that's disruptive to the class/students. A short bark, they settle, and we continue.

He uses push-ups, jumping jacks for punishment and I've seen the same kid get 6 sessions of these in just the warm ups and he's been there as long as we have been. It's not working so why does the instructor persist?

Not all instructors use push-ups and jumping jacks and the like for punishment, but most instructors do. I've done my share of them, especially when I was a kid. I started when I was 7 years old, and I was full of vinegar and salt. Even as an adult, one who's a Senior Dan rank, has been punished because I forgot who I was and who my Sensei/Instructor was; so I was reminded often. I'm still here, 51 years this October!

Exactly what do you think isn't working??

Kids, even adults, and not all, have to do more than their share of push-us and jumping jacks because they forget the rules and stuff like that. Don't want to be "punished", then don't act like a ding dong. If your son is being "punished", then ask him WHY? Discipline is a necessary tool, otherwise, anarchy exists and tries to take over...NOT IN MY DOJO/SCHOOL!!

Some students don't view push-ups and jumping jacks as a form of punishment; they welcome the additional exercise. Well, they do! View, if you can, the "punishment" as a discipline tool. You, as a parent, "punish" your child when they've deserved it; thusly, so does the instructor when the student deserves it.

This instructor isn't physically abusive with anyone, is he/she?? If not, push-ups and jumping jacks, for a punishment, is a good thing, and quite beneficial across the board.

I don't feel like he corrects technique or really teaches it. He keeps telling them to get kicks higher but doesn't talk about the proper way to do them.

Again, not all good instructors teach the same way; but they reach the same goals. High road, low road teaching ideology; but all reach the goal: effectiveness across the board. TIME takes TIME!!

Telling them to get kicks higher is good, if that's what they're suppose to be doing. Have you been to each and every class? If so, then address this concern with the CI ASAP to get an understanding between you two. If you've not been to every class, then perhaps, the technical portions have been already covered. Therefore, reminding them is simply reinforcing that which they've already been taught. Can't learn the MA without first learning the HOW, and the HOW deals with much more than the technical aspects. The Who, why, when, what, and where are after the HOW is understood.

You can't have quality without have repetitions!! Impossible!! How many repetitions do you think I've done, and still do, and I'm a Senior Dan rank with over 50 years on the floor?? I would like to believe that your instructor has taught the HOW, if not, talk to the CI ASAP!!

Remember, don't assume a position that you don't possess. You're the parent/consumer and the CI is the instructor. Approach the instructor with respect and ask your questions, but for the sake of having a fruitful conversation, don't approach the CI with assumptions and accusatory tones for obvious reasons.

One thing that really bothered me was at this last belt test. It was the class after the test when he usually gives the belts and he didn't mention anything. My child asked at the end of the class if he earned his belt. The instructor just said, "I don't know. Did you?" Next class, no belts or mention. My son asked again and he still gave the same casual/rude response. My son went home crying and just kept saying I am trying hard but I guess he doesn't see that. Well come to find out he didn't have the belts and they were back-ordered. So why not show respect to your students and tell them that. I felt like one of the things we are suppose to be focusing on here is showing respect for others and yourself and the instructor didn't extend that to the students.

That was not cool of the CI!! Communication must happen, and it must be all of the time, no matter the situation/problem. Soon as the CI knew that there was an issue with his/her order, that's the opportunity to explain what's going on.

If after a testing cycle, and the CI is delaying due to an unfortunate order shortage because of a back-order, and a student asks if they passed or not, post the results, and explain to those who've passed, that the awards ceremony will take place when the belts arrive. Don't leave a student hanging with unfulfilling answers, like..."I don't know. Did you?" Unprofessional and unnecessary. That's a way to lose the trust of students and parents/consumers...real fast!!

Communicate immediately everything to everyone!! It's called being accountable!!

The respect came, and then left by the way the CI choose to address this problem. Can't teach respect if you're not giving respect to those who've earned it....the student body and the parents/consumers!! Word of mouth will close the doors faster than one can blink, and this CI opened his school up for failure by not being forthwith on communication. Bad CI...Bad!! 1,000 push-ups, CI...NOW!!

So set me straight. This is a tiny town and I can't go back if I stop. Is this normal, i.e., games, focus on repetition verses quality, etc. for a 8-10 year old class?

Your concerns are valid, and I respect them all. Talk with the CI ASAP and come to an equivocal understanding between you and the CI. Ask the questions, and you may not like the answers, but ask them nonetheless because you and your son deserve to understand that which you don't understand.

The games, the repetition, etc, are normal in the MA. Are you and you're son there for rank? If so, then quality won't exist!! If the school teaches for rank, then quality won't exist!! This is true for both kids and adults alike!! If you and your son aren't there for rank, and if your school doesn't teach for rank, then sit down, have a conversation, and work together to reach goals.

You're given an incredible opportunity. You get to witness your son's MA journey firsthand; that's a blessing!! Don't squander the opportunity because you and your CI haven't had a fruitful conversation. Right now, the MA is for your son, let him experience it. The MA isn't easy to learn, and if it was, everyone would be learning it.

Just because that's the only school, for me, isn't a reason to remain. If you aren't satisfied after the conversation with the CI, then you're left to no resolve: to quit, or not to quit?! An instructor must be able to challenge the student, and not the parent/consumer!! One last note...Skill without knowledge is worthless...does your son's instructor possess the knowledge?!?!

After the conversation with the CI...the only thing remaining is this...

Train hard, and train well!!

[DWx]

First of all welcome to the forums MissTup

Excellent answer by Bob and I 100% agree with approaching the instructor and sitting down for a friendly, non-accusatory chat. Aside from the response re. belt testing things seem pretty normal at the school and even that, as impolite as it was, may just be down to him having a bad day etc.

If you want to find out more and about how your child can develop faster, go to the instructor with an open mind and ask if there is anything you can do to help your son. Is there any extra practice you can do? And where are his weak areas? That said, no 8 year old will develop into Bruce Lee overnight, he's still a kid and most likely not ready for the serious disciplined training.

[bushido_man96]

Aside from the answers provided, I think the only other thing you could do is check out some other schools in the area with similar programs, and stop and watch some classes, talk to the instructors, and see if there is a program you like better. If that's the case, then look at moving on.

[truejim]

We have been there for a year, btw, my son is 8, and I feel like there is a lot of game playing and not much growth, focus, technique and respect being demonstrated.

My son is also 8, but my experience is very different from yours. At our school, the instructors are all friendly, cheerful, playful, and they interject a lot of humor into the teaching. But that having been said, the class is very focused and disciplined. The instructors clearly always have control of the class. The instructors never, ever get angry. For the regular classes, pushups and such are not used as punishments.

The playfulness of the school is evident even from just their Facebook page ( https://www.facebook.com/majestmartialartssterling ) but at the same time you can see how good the kids are. Playfulness and good instruction go together well.

The main instructor wears a headset blue-toothed to the speaker system, so when he wants to get loud he can, without shouting. Just like at my son's elementary school, the instructors use a school-clap to regain control of the class if the class starts to not pay attention.

With regards to technique, there is a lot of *instruction* about technique, but for younger children (like 5 - 8 ) there's not yet a lot of *enforcement* of technique, because the gross-motor skills for most young children simply aren't there yet...so there is more focus on physical fitness and learning forms at that age. I'll also add: it surprises me how often children pick up good technique just through observation and repetition. We have one young teen with a learning disability who went from really-bad to not-too-shabby with very little correction from the instructor, just via observation and repetition.

Our instructors would never be coy about whether you passed a test or not. At that age group, children are very concerned about things being fair, so being coy about tests would be very demotivating.

Bottom line: Based on what you've written, personally, as a parent, I would look for a better school, if you can find one.

[Luther unleashed]

First, sorry to hear your frustrated with martial arts training for your child. Second, wow sense8 gave a response that, as an instructor myself, is an incredible response on so many levels. I mean really, it's long and if anybody takes the time to read it it's really on point. I can't contribute too much because of his in depth response and the others who have answered and commented.

Only thing I can think of is I'm curious if this is your first martial arts experience? Also, I use push-ups mainly, to "wake the kids up". The thing that my teacher who taught me to teach told me, if I do that, you must explain, weather it's imedieatly after or pulling the student/students aside and explain to them. I also always try to end my talk with possitive.

Example, do you know why you did pushups? No? Well this is why, so we're not going to have this problem. Again right? OK great, your doing great I just need this to not happen, your kicks are really coming along!

As for some of the other stuff, it's really hard because I can't help but wonder if somebody could say these things about me, some of them any2ays, I think it's a great deal of perception and this is why I ask "is this your first martial arts experience?" If so it's a very tough call on weather you are being impatient and a bit hard on the instructor, as sensei8 stated you are paying for a service and if you are not happy certainly you shouldn't spend your hard earned money. I would like to hear much more detailed explication to these companies before I personally was able to tell you if I felt you are in a bad place. Take care.

[Mend]

I have personally seen the effects of discipline-focused training in my school's children's class and the effects are profound.

You should not be paying for a day care, fun time school. Traditional martial arts are in fact Martial. Arts. They're steeped in Focus, tradition, respect, humility and honor. These are virtues difficult to train a child but my teacher treats them as young adults. If you act up you do push ups, if you talk or laugh excessively, its followed up by a discipline talk and or push ups.

Martial Arts for a child can be difficult but starting to enforce those virtues I mentioned above at a young age has a huge impact on the children as they grow up. Their confidence and understanding of life is through the roof, they're more mature and structured vs. kids who don't have this in their lives.

It's my experience that this is the ideal training and that it's very hard to find schools this traditional and disciplined - the parents love it and our teacher really makes them work and show respect.

Some people will say anything is better than nothing and that's true to a certain degree, but it cannot be overstated how much traditional martial arts instruction can improve one's life.

I wish you luck in finding a place like this.

[sensei8]

I have personally seen the effects of discipline-focused training in my school's children's class and the effects are profound.

You should not be paying for a day care, fun time school. Traditional martial arts are in fact Martial. Arts. They're steeped in Focus, tradition, respect, humility and honor. These are virtues difficult to train a child but my teacher treats them as young adults. If you act up you do push ups, if you talk or laugh excessively, its followed up by a discipline talk and or push ups.

Martial Arts for a child can be difficult but starting to enforce those virtues I mentioned above at a young age has a huge impact on the children as they grow up. Their confidence and understanding of life is through the roof, they're more mature and structured vs. kids who don't have this in their lives.

It's my experience that this is the ideal training and that it's very hard to find schools this traditional and disciplined - the parents love it and our teacher really makes them work and show respect.

Some people will say anything is better than nothing and that's true to a certain degree, but it cannot be overstated how much traditional martial arts instruction can improve one's life.

I wish you luck in finding a place like this.

Solid post!!

[JR 137]

I have personally seen the effects of discipline-focused training in my school's children's class and the effects are profound.

You should not be paying for a day care, fun time school. Traditional martial arts are in fact Martial. Arts. They're steeped in Focus, tradition, respect, humility and honor. These are virtues difficult to train a child but my teacher treats them as young adults. If you act up you do push ups, if you talk or laugh excessively, its followed up by a discipline talk and or push ups.

Martial Arts for a child can be difficult but starting to enforce those virtues I mentioned above at a young age has a huge impact on the children as they grow up. Their confidence and understanding of life is through the roof, they're more mature and structured vs. kids who don't have this in their lives.

It's my experience that this is the ideal training and that it's very hard to find schools this traditional and disciplined - the parents love it and our teacher really makes them work and show respect.

Some people will say anything is better than nothing and that's true to a certain degree, but it cannot be overstated how much traditional martial arts instruction can improve one's life.

I wish you luck in finding a place like this.

Fully agree. Being a school teacher, I find this generation of kids is the generation of ZERO accountability. Nothing is EVER their fault. Kids don't fail classes, teachers fail them. When a kids acts up and disrespects someone older than them, the mentality is "what did you do to my kid to make him/her do that?" Kids these days don't know the meaning of a very old, simple and and effective word: "No." My kids do. A lot of people think I'm too hard on my kids. I guess telling them no is mean nowadays.

[Titanium]

Yes, welcome to KF - I see what you are saying.

I would certainly ask your sensei the question; sometimes like my sensei does, especially if people are limited to time, he will do private sessions.

Now and again if there is an advanced class, instructors can allow practitioners access to these to to bring people on quicker.