sensei8 Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Karate is mostly striking and this is the aim of each and every technique. Physical conflict is very different from a competition bout and one of the main differences is distance. Non sporting situations are always at a distance that allows all manner of seizing, locking, trapping, throwing or otherwise unbalancing the other man. All these techniques are applied to facilitate a strike and as such they are always preceded or followed by a strike.An in depth look at kata shows that every single one has at least two or three such techniques. In Shuri-te based systems, every kata ends with some kind of throw. Perhaps one reason that the grappling is not commonly taught in karate is that those who have learned it and are able to teach it are few and far between. Teaching to large groups also makes the detailed teaching of these techniques very difficult. Add to that the popularity of competition karate where such grappling is avoided or illegal and one can start to see why these might have been cast aside.Solid post!!I prefer to remain on my feet; causing my opponent to find themselves on the ground instead of me through my hand strikes and the like. After all, 85% of our techniques in Shindokan are with our hands. If, for some reason(s) I find myself on the ground, I'm prepared for that, and welcome it, if need be. **Proof is on the floor!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judodad_karateson Posted July 27, 2015 Author Share Posted July 27, 2015 My theory is that Funakoshi and others took grappling/throws/chokes out of the curriculum to make it a distinct MA when pitching it to Japan's authorities. If there was cross-over between karate and other established arts, it may have gotten dismissed by saying "that's close to what we have now, why bother?" That's possible but my main point it that these grappling techniques and drills are karate and it's not martial arts heresy for practitioners to go back to their roots in order to compete. In dojo's that operate as a business (and not a hobby) they must compete and they must market a competent martial art that works in various situations. I think dojo's that are basically a hobby should look at this too, but they might not fail economically due to not providing a comprehensive self defense system. I don't think we are always providing a similar comprehensive self defense system in todays Karate like the one the Okinawan's brought to Japan.I know too many instructors that are deathly afraid to do something new, because they think they are just turning on their original style of karate. I want to comfort them into realizing that their Karate has much more in it's tradition than what may have been taught to them. It's ok to go deeper.I would not mind seeing grappling in tournament. We dont have to turn it into MMA, but allowing for controlled takedowns counting ad a point would, in my opinion, do tons for the world of Karate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildbourgman Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 I think that some Ippon kumite competitions allow takedowns but you have to perform it cleanly and within seconds of a clinch or they restart you. You don't get the point for the takedown (which I would prefer also) but for the strike after your opponent it down.According to my memory even MMA no longer allows Tuite's small joint locks and/or ju-jitsu's small circle techniques with fingers and such and I agree with that rule. Someone please let me know if I'm wrong about that being the case. WildBourgMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judodad_karateson Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 According to my memory even MMA no longer allows Tuite's small joint locks and/or ju-jitsu's small circle techniques with fingers and such and I agree with that rule. Someone please let me know if I'm wrong about that being the case.Small joint manipulation is legal in the wrist and above, but between the wrap and the gloves, good luck getting a wrist lock! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR 137 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I think that some Ippon kumite competitions allow takedowns but you have to perform it cleanly and within seconds of a clinch or they restart you. You don't get the point for the takedown (which I would prefer also) but for the strike after your opponent it down.According to my memory even MMA no longer allows Tuite's small joint locks and/or ju-jitsu's small circle techniques with fingers and such and I agree with that rule. Someone please let me know if I'm wrong about that being the case.Enshin karate's Sabaki Challenge allegedly allows throws and sweeps. Haven't seen it to confirm. To YouTube... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GojuRyu Bahrain Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Throws and joint locks are an official part of my organization's curriculum (German Goju Ryu Yushinkan), which have to be demonstrated during belt test starting somewhere around green belt. This is the case at least since the 1980s, likely since the founding in the late 1950s. In my home-club we extensively train Tegumi including ground fighting,if the situation arises...The focus is on stricking > kicking > throws > locks, in that order, and it should be like this for Karate training because only if all those elements are present, meaningful Bunkai may be developed, in my opinion.In Shotokan (JKA and Kase-Ha) I haven't encountered much throwing or locks, though. This may explain why the bunkais there are very basic and often unrealistic... ------------Goju Ryu (Yushinkan since 1989), Shotokan (JKA since 2005) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian77 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Our dojo regularly does throws, locks, chokes, etc., as well as periodically (maybe once a month) focusing on grappling for a class. So it's pretty well integrated in our dojo. We have a good variety in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Maximus Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 It would probably be accurate to say that if the karate one has been learning does not include any kind of trapping, locking, throwing or take-downs then, either it has not been taught correctly or one is learning a system adapted to sporting competition. This is not a bad thing so long as one realizes that original karate was never intended for sport and there is a whole world of difference between sport matches and defending oneself in order to survive and escape violent encounters that may come unexpectedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guird Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 I would not mind seeing grappling in tournament. We dont have to turn it into MMA, but allowing for controlled takedowns counting ad a point would, in my opinion, do tons for the world of Karate.I'm pretty sure a throw or sweep followed by a punch (with the thrower still standing) is ippon in WKF tournaments. I understand it's a more recent rule though, and many dojos (the last place I trained shotokan included) don't throw.I also remeber something about foot sweeps under JKA rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjanurse Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 As my Sensei used to say, "Don't worry, it's all in there." "A Black Belt is only the beginning."Heidi-A student of the artsTae Kwon Do,Shotokan,Ju Jitsu,Modern Arnishttp://the100info.tumblr.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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