Karate grappling

[Judodad_karateson]

All the karate I have see includes, at the very least, some kind of joint locks, take downs, and throwing at the higher levels, and sweeps and break falls taught normally to lower ranked students.

Its my understanding that tegumi was historically taught to karateka, But not as much as today. How would you feel about introducing more grappling into the curriculum of modern karate?

[muttley]

This is something I find is very much dependant on the instructor. For instance, over my 20-30 years of training in Karate, I have had many different instructors, one of them introduced a lot of grappling, throws and ground work alongside the kihon and kate in an effort to make the classes more self defence orientated. Then I had another sensei whose strong point was the power and precision of the striking techniques etc.

I personally feel that there should be some grappling techniques taught in karate, but that it should be introduced and taught alongside to compliment the striking techniques. I fell that this is what Funakoshi wanted, he always recognised the need for grappling techniques in karate due to his training and study of judo.

[Wado Heretic]

Depends on what one is hoping to achieve by doing so. If the goal is to be competitive in hybrid combat sports then you will have to add sophisticated wrestling and grappling techniques. If it is self-defence, then focusing on break falls, and the fundamentals of defence against body-to-body/grappling might be all one needs.

I would say the second is relatively easy to incorporate into most approaches to karate, and in many respects you have listed most of the classic responses taught already.

I would say the issue is that, in the broader scope of things, rarely are such techniques taught in isolation, or against a resisting target. Furthermore, the conventional approach to sparring in many karate dojo does not allow the incorporation of grappling because of limits on contact. I would say any karate dojo which does not already, could benefit from testing it's grappling concepts with live training and isolation sparring. However, to return to the opening statement; it depends on the goal relating to adding the grappling. If it is for the purpose of sport; than one must integrate guard work, sprawling, trapping, and any number of elements which are not part of traditional karate theory. In that sense it might be better to move away from karate into the realm of hybridised combat sports.

I would also high light that tegumi was not taught as an element of karate as it was understood in turn of the century Okinawa. Rather Tegumi was a popular sport which many karateka also participated in, and thus had a knowledge of grappling in which their karate was then grounded.

[JR 137]

If you read about the history of karate and its founders, just about every founder and even the more modern systems/schools' founders have experience in judo or jujitsu.

Why most don't formally include the most basic throws, locks and chokes in the curriculum is something I've been wondering/questioning for years. Some teachers with experience in judo/jujitsu will teach a few here and there, but won't test on it or make what they've taught a formal requirement.

If I were to start my own karate system, there'd be a few of the basics in the formal curriculum. People would say "that's not karate," then I'd point to literature of where guys like Funakoshi and Miyagi studied judo, and say no more.

[Wastelander]

Our system has a lot of standing joint locks, chokes, sweeps, and throws. We also teach breakfalls and various methods of escaping from ground situations and standing back up. Outside of that, we have a grappling class for a more in-depth exploration of grappling, but it's usually pretty small. I do a lot of kata-based randori, though, so I get to work in a lot of our locks, chokes, sweeps, and throws against a resisting opponent, although we're careful about it.

[wildbourgman]

You have to remember that Okinawans that went to Japan such as Funakoshi already had immense and deep knowledge of grappling.

Karate as many people know it today dropped many of these techniques when Karate was implemented in Japanese schools and when Sport karate became wildly popular in Japan and eventually Worldwide. I also think that the Okinawan masters once in Japan did not want to disrespect the native Ju-jistu and Judo practitioners by competing with similar techniques.

I know that many of my Shotokan friends are rather unhappy and perplexed about competition with MMA and Brazilian Ju-jitsu. I think we should reflect back to the beginning of Karate, striking and sport karate (which I really enjoy) are not filling this void for many practitioners.

I see this void being filled by people like Steve Ubl and Ian Abernathy just to name a couple. Many of the foundational Okinawan styles which played second fiddle to the sports styles are also being revisited as they should be.

[JR 137]

My theory is that Funakoshi and others took grappling/throws/chokes out of the curriculum to make it a distinct MA when pitching it to Japan's authorities. If there was cross-over between karate and other established arts, it may have gotten dismissed by saying "that's close to what we have now, why bother?"

I read something that hints to this in either Kano's bio or Funakoshi's. Can't remember which one or where. But it was one of those a-ha moments for me.

[wildbourgman]

My theory is that Funakoshi and others took grappling/throws/chokes out of the curriculum to make it a distinct MA when pitching it to Japan's authorities. If there was cross-over between karate and other established arts, it may have gotten dismissed by saying "that's close to what we have now, why bother?"

That's possible but my main point it that these grappling techniques and drills are karate and it's not martial arts heresy for practitioners to go back to their roots in order to compete. In dojo's that operate as a business (and not a hobby) they must compete and they must market a competent martial art that works in various situations. I think dojo's that are basically a hobby should look at this too, but they might not fail economically due to not providing a comprehensive self defense system. I don't think we are always providing a similar comprehensive self defense system in todays Karate like the one the Okinawan's brought to Japan.

I know too many instructors that are deathly afraid to do something new, because they think they are just turning on their original style of karate. I want to comfort them into realizing that their Karate has much more in it's tradition than what may have been taught to them. It's ok to go deeper.

[sensei8]

All the karate I have see includes, at the very least, some kind of joint locks, take downs, and throwing at the higher levels, and sweeps and break falls taught normally to lower ranked students.

Its my understanding that tegumi was historically taught to karateka, But not as much as today. How would you feel about introducing more grappling into the curriculum of modern karate?

I'm wholeheartedly for it. Shindokan, already has included Tegumi and the like into its curriculum from its creation; our Soke was BIG on this not being just a simple involvement, but a very deep involvement because fights can happen standing and on the ground.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Karate is mostly striking and this is the aim of each and every technique. Physical conflict is very different from a competition bout and one of the main differences is distance.

Non sporting situations are always at a distance that allows all manner of seizing, locking, trapping, throwing or otherwise unbalancing the other man. All these techniques are applied to facilitate a strike and as such they are always preceded or followed by a strike.

An in depth look at kata shows that every single one has at least two or three such techniques. In Shuri-te based systems, every kata ends with some kind of throw.

Perhaps one reason that the grappling is not commonly taught in karate is that those who have learned it and are able to teach it are few and far between. Teaching to large groups also makes the detailed teaching of these techniques very difficult. Add to that the popularity of competition karate where such grappling is avoided or illegal and one can start to see why these might have been cast aside.