"Martial Arts" An in-depth look at rank

[Kanku65]

Really some great posts guys. The thing that stands out the most is how many have said they chased belts in the beginning at a young age or at least early training days. I find it truly interesting because I never did, and only cared when I decided I wanted to teach and saw a different perspective on ranks importance. I'm not attempting to speak in a way that makes me sound judgmental about it, just saying that it wasn't an interest to me.

I was homeless in my late teens, I used to go into dojos and watch classes and act like I had money to join just becasue interested me that much. Crazy ibknow. I trained out of a lot of books, I studied with a friends uncle that boxed for the army, and was a black belt in The Kwon Do. I cared very little for the sport aspect and cared a great deal about what I got from it personally on the mental side, and from a combatitive side. The neighborhood ibwas in was rough and I faught a lot as well. I realise I'm being very personal but I'm feeling the urge to share so don't judge haha.

I guess where I'm going with this is that if there's something deeper in the meaning its easy for us to focus on more then the surface. It's OK tobset a goal forba belt, I believe it's the greatest reason to have belts, to have something to reach for. There just needs to be a balance and the goal should be to be the best we can be, and hold ourselves to a high standard, that is what makes a belt hold its weight anyways.

Incredible story! You shall receive no judgement from me.

I for one never really desired my next belts... Of course I'd always wanted black belt, but I never wanted to rush it. I don't rush anything. Except for overdue term papers...

I graded when I was told to grade. I didn't strive for the rank, I just tried a little harder everyday. I wanted to be good at karate, and still hope to be someday. I didn't care what colour my belt was. When I received shodan I really cared a lot though.

Now, as a new shodan, I see some karateka who hold lower ranks outperforming black belts, including myself at times. This is FINE.

Their ability to outperform is not reflective of anyone but their own abilities.

I made it through the ranks and am performing at shodan level. Just because their technique is sharper, does not mean they are more knowledgeable, or could defend themselves easier, or are more respectful to others. We must only work on ourselves, and not pay attention to those around us, for this can be most discouraging. "First know yourself, then know others." This also means I have potential to grow. This is the ultimate aim, to always grow as a MAist and a person. Perhaps if a 4th kyu is performing at shodan level, they have less potential to grow, or will grow slower. I for one hope to never hit a bad plateau like I did in my teens...

Luther unleashed, your signature sums up much of what I believe in.

[Luther unleashed]

Really some great posts guys. The thing that stands out the most is how many have said they chased belts in the beginning at a young age or at least early training days. I find it truly interesting because I never did, and only cared when I decided I wanted to teach and saw a different perspective on ranks importance. I'm not attempting to speak in a way that makes me sound judgmental about it, just saying that it wasn't an interest to me.

I was homeless in my late teens, I used to go into dojos and watch classes and act like I had money to join just becasue interested me that much. Crazy ibknow. I trained out of a lot of books, I studied with a friends uncle that boxed for the army, and was a black belt in The Kwon Do. I cared very little for the sport aspect and cared a great deal about what I got from it personally on the mental side, and from a combatitive side. The neighborhood ibwas in was rough and I faught a lot as well. I realise I'm being very personal but I'm feeling the urge to share so don't judge haha.

I guess where I'm going with this is that if there's something deeper in the meaning its easy for us to focus on more then the surface. It's OK tobset a goal forba belt, I believe it's the greatest reason to have belts, to have something to reach for. There just needs to be a balance and the goal should be to be the best we can be, and hold ourselves to a high standard, that is what makes a belt hold its weight anyways.

Incredible story! You shall receive no judgement from me.

I for one never really desired my next belts... Of course I'd always wanted black belt, but I never wanted to rush it. I don't rush anything. Except for overdue term papers...

I graded when I was told to grade. I didn't strive for the rank, I just tried a little harder everyday. I wanted to be good at karate, and still hope to be someday. I didn't care what colour my belt was. When I received shodan I really cared a lot though.

Now, as a new shodan, I see some karateka who hold lower ranks outperforming black belts, including myself at times. This is FINE.

Their ability to outperform is not reflective of anyone but their own abilities.

I made it through the ranks and am performing at shodan level. Just because their technique is sharper, does not mean they are more knowledgeable, or could defend themselves easier, or are more respectful to others. We must only work on ourselves, and not pay attention to those around us, for this can be most discouraging. "First know yourself, then know others." This also means I have potential to grow. This is the ultimate aim, to always grow as a MAist and a person. Perhaps if a 4th kyu is performing at shodan level, they have less potential to grow, or will grow slower. I for one hope to never hit a bad plateau like I did in my teens...

Luther unleashed, your signature sums up much of what I believe in.

Thanks for the well thought out post. I agree that in training you should focus on yourself and not others. As a teacher though all I do is look at others. Your also right that some students will look better and that it doesn't mean they have more knowlage, or training time for that matter. The issue ibsee often though is that many students can perform their current material fine, but can't perform the previous rank with any sense of efficiancy. This really represents a problem to me that comes from chasing belts rather then the knowlage becasue if it was the knowlage you were after, you would certainly keep seeking it. A month ago I learned something applications for kichu il bu which is taught at white belt level. If I only seek rank, you understand that learning that isn't a requirement for rank, and I am far past kichu il bu in tang soo do.

Again really great post.

[JR 137]

Promoted to yellow belt Wednesday night. Yellow belt is 6th kyu in Seido, as go white-blue-yellow-green-brown-black, with an "advanced" belt between colored belts.

It was a great experience. My CI pushed me out of my comfort zone, I gave it my all, and I did better than I thought I could. That was what I was truly after. I really look forward to the tests; the outcome isn't any big deal any more.

My CI really made me feel great at the closing of the test (class for everyone else) when he said (paraphrasing somewhat) "I'm very proud of the way you've handled yourself every day thus far. Very, very few people are willing to go from being a black belt to completely starting over again as a white belt and go through all the material and ranks again. You've been very graceful in it, and everyone at the dojo can learn from the example you're setting." I wasn't expecting him to go there.

My previous system's founder was a former Seido sensei who started his own organization. Being in Seido currently, a lot of the syllabus is the same, but there's more material I'm responsible for at each rank. I wonder why my former organization cut out the stuff they did; the syllabus is far better with it.

[Luther unleashed]

Promoted to yellow belt Wednesday night. Yellow belt is 6th kyu in Seido, as go white-blue-yellow-green-brown-black, with an "advanced" belt between colored belts.

It was a great experience. My CI pushed me out of my comfort zone, I gave it my all, and I did better than I thought I could. That was what I was truly after. I really look forward to the tests; the outcome isn't any big deal any more.

My CI really made me feel great at the closing of the test (class for everyone else) when he said (paraphrasing somewhat) "I'm very proud of the way you've handled yourself every day thus far. Very, very few people are willing to go from being a black belt to completely starting over again as a white belt and go through all the material and ranks again. You've been very graceful in it, and everyone at the dojo can learn from the example you're setting." I wasn't expecting him to go there.

My previous system's founder was a former Seido sensei who started his own organization. Being in Seido currently, a lot of the syllabus is the same, but there's more material I'm responsible for at each rank. I wonder why my former organization cut out the stuff they did; the syllabus is far better with it.

Awsome!! Nothing like hard work paying off. Good job to you, that sounds pretty cool and I'm glad your on the right track with what the martial arts are about, fits in this thread. Good job!

[JR 137]

Thanks, Luther. I'm not exactly sure why I'm indifferent to my rank. I don't know if it's because I've "been there, done that" before, or if it's because I'm 39, and I was 19-25 during my first stint. The only thing I'm sure of is that I truly appreciate the process this time around, whereas I was just after results last time.

I also feel so much better this time around. I don't have the speed or flexibility I had before, but for some reason I feel stronger, sharper, and far smarter. I was in far better shape in my college days. I can easily see my mistakes now especially when sparring; I know when I could have taken a very hard shot if my partner didn't hold back, whereas before I was all about what I did right. I'm about consciously making myself better. I force myself to do things I'm uncomfortable with, whereas I used to constantly go to what I was good at, I guess in an attempt to cover up my short comings.

I guess it's more maturity than anything else. I don't care who's better or worse than me, I just want to outdo myself. I'm really looking forward to taking my black belt test, whenever that'll be. Having Tadashi Nakamura put me through the paces should be a great time. I'm definitely in no rush to get there, but it's the experience and not the "I'm a black belt now" that I'm after. I'm going to try to get down to the honbu in NYC (about 2.5 hrs away) a few times beforehand. Classmates make regular trips, I just have to fit it into my schedule somehow.

[sensei8]

Promoted to yellow belt Wednesday night. Yellow belt is 6th kyu in Seido, as go white-blue-yellow-green-brown-black, with an "advanced" belt between colored belts.

It was a great experience. My CI pushed me out of my comfort zone, I gave it my all, and I did better than I thought I could. That was what I was truly after. I really look forward to the tests; the outcome isn't any big deal any more.

My CI really made me feel great at the closing of the test (class for everyone else) when he said (paraphrasing somewhat) "I'm very proud of the way you've handled yourself every day thus far. Very, very few people are willing to go from being a black belt to completely starting over again as a white belt and go through all the material and ranks again. You've been very graceful in it, and everyone at the dojo can learn from the example you're setting." I wasn't expecting him to go there.

My previous system's founder was a former Seido sensei who started his own organization. Being in Seido currently, a lot of the syllabus is the same, but there's more material I'm responsible for at each rank. I wonder why my former organization cut out the stuff they did; the syllabus is far better with it.

Congrats on your promotion; well done!!

[ShoriKid]

On the flip side of this, there are martial artists who are held back from promotion for reasons other than their skills. Time in grade, which Sensei8 was fortunate to avoid due to an insightful instructor, politics, personal feelings etc. I have a friend who was held back from shodan due to school vs school politics. I've known a few people held at shodan because the instructor didn't want them getting too close in rank to them.

Sure, at some point rank doesn't matter. And then it does. The skilled martial artist would rather train with the Nidan who is highly skilled than the Godan who is middling at best. However, if you are entering into the world of teaching, most people are not skilled martial artist and the number of stripes on the belt matter. And, if you are part of an organization, being lower rank matters many times. The words of those below Godan generally aren't accorded a lot of weight. Politics is a human endeavor. Last I checked humans are the only ones doing organized martial arts (I hope!). Therefore politics come into play at some point in everything we do.

[sensei8]

Time in grade can be the albatross hung around the neck of every student that's subjected to the order of the governing body. Time in grade does have its merits, but for one to appreciate what they are, takes some understanding the ideology of that governing body.

Do we instructors hold a student back because the By-Laws of the governing body demands it to be so for the governing bodies sake?

Do we instructors hold a student back for the protection of the student; not wanting to rush a student before a student is ready for a testing cycle?

Do we instructors hold a student back because that Sensei isn't part of any governing body and the Sensei's low rank when he/she broke away from the governing bodies umbrella, and now the student(s) can't be promoted to a rank near or equal to that of the Sensei?

Do we instructors hold a student back because of unprofessional feelings; the Sensei doesn't like the student for whatever the reason(s)?

These questions can be problematic for students? At times, time in grade can be a blessing, but for that to be so, the student has to exhaust the desire for rank.

As ShoriKid states in his last post here, I was fortunate to have the Sensei that I had!! I was frustrated in the By-Laws concerning those of the JBB; a servitude that was as close to discrimination as one can imagine. However, as a JBB I chose to not embrace the ideology of Soke concerning his reasons surrounding the JBB. The time in grade for a JBB has its own rewards: time to learn...time to harness...time to polish...time to acquire...time to chip away at...time to appreciate...time to witness...TIME IN GRADE CAN BE TIME APPRECIATED!!

If we students don't appreciate what is being done for us, then we don't deserve to be students!!

[Luther unleashed]

I agree that rank carries some weight. My intention in writing my original post want top day rank doesn't matter at all, but as an example, I just found a new place to train. It's style is a Kung fu style and really carries no rank, the only real rank is master, once you have learned all of the main material and I like that in a way. It makes me feel as though it's less t I worry about in a way idk. I honestly feel that having the belt system and rank is more harmful then good most of the time. It has its goods as pointed out in this thread but there are many bads. The main point agreed on so far is that rank and it's meaning are completely subjective. The weight that a person's rank carries is not the same anywhere you go and compare, so that makes it carry less weight to me. It does represent time in rank at most schools but even that can be just a number. If student A trains an hour a day, and student B trains 1 hour a week then even time in rank means very little. If student B practiced for a year you would wrongfully assume he is better or even more knowledgeable then student A if he has trained 6 months, but in six months student A has trained and studied about 182 hours, while student B has only trained about 52 hours.

Sorry for the 6th grade math problem but I'm just saying that I guess the way I approach it is not to overthink it. I few my ability as how hard I work and the time put in, not the rank somebody says I am.

[sensei8]

I agree that rank carries some weight. My intention in writing my original post want top day rank doesn't matter at all, but as an example, I just found a new place to train. It's style is a Kung fu style and really carries no rank, the only real rank is master, once you have learned all of the main material and I like that in a way. It makes me feel as though it's less t I worry about in a way idk. I honestly feel that having the belt system and rank is more harmful then good most of the time. It has its goods as pointed out in this thread but there are many bads. The main point agreed on so far is that rank and it's meaning are completely subjective. The weight that a person's rank carries is not the same anywhere you go and compare, so that makes it carry less weight to me. It does represent time in rank at most schools but even that can be just a number. If student A trains an hour a day, and student B trains 1 hour a week then even time in rank means very little. If student B practiced for a year you would wrongfully assume he is better or even more knowledgeable then student A if he has trained 6 months, but in six months student A has trained and studied about 182 hours, while student B has only trained about 52 hours.

Sorry for the 6th grade math problem but I'm just saying that I guess the way I approach it is not to overthink it. I few my ability as how hard I work and the time put in, not the rank somebody says I am.

Solid post!!

To the bold type above...

Time in rank, as I was taught by Soke and Dai-Soke, has very little meaning in a time frame; students aren't judged by how long it's been since last testing cycle before they petition to attend a testing cycle. Quality is what students MUST bring to the tenure's time frame.

Time in grade is subjected to the governing body. Even if a Sensei signs off on a student, the Hombu, alas the governing body, has the final approval if time in grade has been quality spent, and was that quality spent quality enriched. Date A to Date B have so little concerns; it's the smallest piece in the deciding puzzle.

We don't look at a students Hard Card file and/or the Sensei's report about each student submitted for testing cycles to see when was that student last tested. No we're looking for quality achieved during that minimal time in grade since last petition. The Hombu, from time to time, will send an instructor from the Hombu to observe if quality has been achieved; is that/those student(s) improving, getting better than previous.

If a student, for example, is a Nidan petitioning to test for Sandan, and it's only been a year, and not the minimum of two years, then there has to be extended circumstances involved to warrant further considerations.

Time in grade/Tenure are important, but it's at the bottom of our check list!!