Question on the title Soke

[The Pred]

So from what I understand, if I were to found my own recognized Martial Art I would be the Soke. Now from what I read, if I had a son, and I died, my son would become Soke of the school. So if I died, and my son was 18, and he becomes Soke does he become a 10th dan? What gives it the right of an automatic promotion? Since he did not found the art, but is merely an inheritor.

[Spartacus Maximus]

It depends on how attached one is to the significance of that title. The title comes from japanese martial arts and literally means "head of household". If one follows that defenition, then whomever is the most senior in the style or governing body may be referred to by that title.

In Japan and Okinawa not all styles or governing body use it. From personal experience, the title of Hanshi is more frequent in Okinawa. Either way, I have never heard anyone being addressed by neither. The confusion arises due to the fact that Soke is or was used by many first generation teachers of new systems. However, inheritors may also be called soke if they are the head of their style, school etc.

[bushido_man96]

I don't think that the term "soke" is necessarily synonymous with a specific rank, like 10th dan, but it does appear to denote stature or position in a hierarchy.

[The Pred]

Thanks everyone !

[sensei8]

I don't think that the term "soke" is necessarily synonymous with a specific rank, like 10th dan, but it does appear to denote stature or position in a hierarchy.

Brain is right! However, Soke, being the founder, is awarded to only ONE person, alas, the founder. In Shindokan, Saitou Sensei was the founder, hence he was Soke. Then, Takahashi Sensei was awarded the Dai-Soke, hence the Second Headmaster, when Soke retired; Soke selected Takahashi Sensei to become the Dai-Soke...it wasn't up to a vote!! Then, Iwao Takahashi, Takahashi Sensei's son, was selected to become the San Dai-Soke by the Dai-Soke, his father.

Notice, there was first the Soke, then the Dai-Soke, then the San Dai-Soke, this was to differ one Soke TYPE from another. Having said that, we've no Soke types in Shindokan anymore; that titles been, well, retired permanently!!

A 5th Dan can be a Soke type because the Soke type is the primary exclusive representative of the governing body. In Shindokan, the Soke type WAS THE OWNER of the Hombu/SKKA; this became a problem in recent years passed, and it's not a problem anymore.

Who can represent the governing body and the student body best?? That's an important question; a question that shouldn't be taken lightly. So, yes, a 18 year old CAN be a Soke type as determined by the governing body hierarchy; it's highly unlikely, but possible. Can that Soke type be a Judan? Per that governing body, and its By-Laws, it would surely be true...per the By-Laws. Why our Soke wrote the By-Laws to read just that way, baffles me, but it was his choice to write it the way he wrote it, and I doubt that he even considered the possibility that "a 18 year old son of his" could become the next Soke type.

[The Pred]

I don't think that the term "soke" is necessarily synonymous with a specific rank, like 10th dan, but it does appear to denote stature or position in a hierarchy.

Brain is right! However, Soke, being the founder, is awarded to only ONE person, alas, the founder. In Shindokan, Saitou Sensei was the founder, hence he was Soke. Then, Takahashi Sensei was awarded the Dai-Soke, hence the Second Headmaster, when Soke retired; Soke selected Takahashi Sensei to become the Dai-Soke...it wasn't up to a vote!! Then, Iwao Takahashi, Takahashi Sensei's son, was selected to become the San Dai-Soke by the Dai-Soke, his father.

Notice, there was first the Soke, then the Dai-Soke, then the San Dai-Soke, this was to differ one Soke TYPE from another. Having said that, we've no Soke types in Shindokan anymore; that titles been, well, retired permanently!!

A 5th Dan can be a Soke type because the Soke type is the primary exclusive representative of the governing body. In Shindokan, the Soke type WAS THE OWNER of the Hombu/SKKA; this became a problem in recent years passed, and it's not a problem anymore.

Who can represent the governing body and the student body best?? That's an important question; a question that shouldn't be taken lightly. So, yes, a 18 year old CAN be a Soke type as determined by the governing body hierarchy; it's highly unlikely, but possible. Can that Soke type be a Judan? Per that governing body, and its By-Laws, it would surely be true...per the By-Laws. Why our Soke wrote the By-Laws to read just that way, baffles me, but it was his choice to write it the way he wrote it, and I doubt that he even considered the possibility that "a 18 year old son of his" could become the next Soke type.

Very insightful, what was San Dai soke rank before he go it.

[sensei8]

I don't think that the term "soke" is necessarily synonymous with a specific rank, like 10th dan, but it does appear to denote stature or position in a hierarchy.

Brain is right! However, Soke, being the founder, is awarded to only ONE person, alas, the founder. In Shindokan, Saitou Sensei was the founder, hence he was Soke. Then, Takahashi Sensei was awarded the Dai-Soke, hence the Second Headmaster, when Soke retired; Soke selected Takahashi Sensei to become the Dai-Soke...it wasn't up to a vote!! Then, Iwao Takahashi, Takahashi Sensei's son, was selected to become the San Dai-Soke by the Dai-Soke, his father.

Notice, there was first the Soke, then the Dai-Soke, then the San Dai-Soke, this was to differ one Soke TYPE from another. Having said that, we've no Soke types in Shindokan anymore; that titles been, well, retired permanently!!

A 5th Dan can be a Soke type because the Soke type is the primary exclusive representative of the governing body. In Shindokan, the Soke type WAS THE OWNER of the Hombu/SKKA; this became a problem in recent years passed, and it's not a problem anymore.

Who can represent the governing body and the student body best?? That's an important question; a question that shouldn't be taken lightly. So, yes, a 18 year old CAN be a Soke type as determined by the governing body hierarchy; it's highly unlikely, but possible. Can that Soke type be a Judan? Per that governing body, and its By-Laws, it would surely be true...per the By-Laws. Why our Soke wrote the By-Laws to read just that way, baffles me, but it was his choice to write it the way he wrote it, and I doubt that he even considered the possibility that "a 18 year old son of his" could become the next Soke type.

Very insightful, what was San Dai soke rank before he go it.

He was Hachidan, yet I was Senior to him via tenure, at the time of his appointment.

[sensei8]

Having said that, we've no Soke types in Shindokan anymore; that titles been, well, retired permanently!!

On a quick different note,

The Soke type was the legal owner of the Hombu/SKKA. As the sole owner of the Hombu/SKKA, he can do whatever they want to with their property, and that became quite apparent with the actions of San Dai-Soke, after the death of Dai-Soke.

To keep that from ever happening again, we created a brand new charter and the like, therefore, eliminating the Soke type for that very reason. No longer would the Hombu/SKKA be the property of one individual to do with as the Soke type pleased to do.

Who owns the Hombu/SKKA? The Hombu/SKKA does, of course.

[The Pred]

I don't think that the term "soke" is necessarily synonymous with a specific rank, like 10th dan, but it does appear to denote stature or position in a hierarchy.

Brain is right! However, Soke, being the founder, is awarded to only ONE person, alas, the founder. In Shindokan, Saitou Sensei was the founder, hence he was Soke. Then, Takahashi Sensei was awarded the Dai-Soke, hence the Second Headmaster, when Soke retired; Soke selected Takahashi Sensei to become the Dai-Soke...it wasn't up to a vote!! Then, Iwao Takahashi, Takahashi Sensei's son, was selected to become the San Dai-Soke by the Dai-Soke, his father.

Notice, there was first the Soke, then the Dai-Soke, then the San Dai-Soke, this was to differ one Soke TYPE from another. Having said that, we've no Soke types in Shindokan anymore; that titles been, well, retired permanently!!

A 5th Dan can be a Soke type because the Soke type is the primary exclusive representative of the governing body. In Shindokan, the Soke type WAS THE OWNER of the Hombu/SKKA; this became a problem in recent years passed, and it's not a problem anymore.

Who can represent the governing body and the student body best?? That's an important question; a question that shouldn't be taken lightly. So, yes, a 18 year old CAN be a Soke type as determined by the governing body hierarchy; it's highly unlikely, but possible. Can that Soke type be a Judan? Per that governing body, and its By-Laws, it would surely be true...per the By-Laws. Why our Soke wrote the By-Laws to read just that way, baffles me, but it was his choice to write it the way he wrote it, and I doubt that he even considered the possibility that "a 18 year old son of his" could become the next Soke type.

Very insightful, what was San Dai soke rank before he go it.

He was Hachidan, yet I was Senior to him via tenure, at the time of his appointment.

Interesting, do you find the skipping of ranks worse then a person earning a high rank at a young age, due to them starting martial arts at a young age.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Keeping in mind that ranks are purely arbitrary and only hold significance within the governing body giving it, it should only matter to those concerned.

If rank is construed as a mark of prestige or privileged status with authority over other members, then there is inevitably problems when a person holding a rank is deemed unqualified or unworthy for whatever reason.