It's Not An Exacting Science!!

[sensei8]

IMHO...

While Kyusho Jitsu is important to Shindokan, it's not an exacting art. Why? Untold parameters dictate it's successful application. Pain threshold, proper application to said point, and so on and so forth.

Yes, it might seem contradictive of me to state the above, especially when Kyusho Jitsu is a important piece of the Shindokan pie; strange of me to not be fully on board with it.

You miss the point, the desired effect will NOT occur. And if you missed the point, why? Your opponent isn't going to just stand there and allow you to poke, prod, and twist at your discretion. Also, you missed the point because you're not experienced, therefore, your knowledge isn't what you think it is. Also, things happen and you just miss the point; better have a solid back up...or run for the hills.

Your opponents not going to drop in anguishing pain each and every time because, well, it's just not going to happen in the real world. Why? Pain thresholds vary from minimal to maximum within each different opponent. Also, you didn't properly apply said application for some reason.

Opponents are resistive!! SHOCK!! Soon as someone admits that, the sooner one can begin to understand what's all involved in applying said Kyusho Jitsu to the desired target with the desired effect!!

Let me tell you a little Shindokan secret when it comes to our brand of Kyusho Jitsu...

IT'S ALL DEFENSIVE!!

Yes, it's all defensive!! We never initiate it!! IMPOSSIBLE!! What might appear to my opponent as offensive, is actually defensive to what our opponent is doing at the moment.

You grab me...guess what...I've still TWO FREE HANDS, while YOU DON'T. The illusion that I'm restricted my your grasp is just that, an illusion, for the moment. However, it's up to me to ensure that the illusion remains, and to act accordingly and immediately. And if I don't, well, then the illusion fades away quickly.

Will I rarely apply Kyusho Jitsu, from what I've just ranted on about? NO!! I believe in it, but I'm also not a fool because it's NOT an exacting art for the reasons I've already mentioned.

The five 'W' and 'How' DO stand in the way of the inexperienced practitioner of Kyusho Jitsu, and that's ok; these parameters are constant but I limit the constant of "IT" through my knowledge/experience.

When grappling, many grapplers doubt what I've just applied UNTIL I've applied it...and it was effective. I will initiate Kyusho Jitsu with a grappler more often than not. In that, I'm seeking a pause in their attack, if only for a split second, just enough to change directions or allow me to transition in or out. Grapplers are sneaky evil doers, and I say this with all respect!! If I want to move an arm, even the slightest, I might manipulate a point, not to effect a knockout or the like, or extreme pain, but just to give the grappler something else to think about, and while they're thinking about that, the arm is question is moved just enough for me to carry out a plan.

NO ONE CAN APPLY KYUSHO JITSU AND IT WORK EVERY TIME WITH EVERY OPPONENT!!

Please don't confuse Tuite applications with Kyusho Jitsu!! They're two separate things. I can manipulate a joint with much more success than a pressure point because joints can only move so far before they break, and a minimal amount of pressure on a joint is enough to have the desired effect that I'm wanting. In Kyusho Jitsu, the applications are much more wider in its effective parameters for the aforementioned reasons I've mentioned here.

Shindokan Kyusho Jitsu is designed to cause discomfort in ones opponent. Avenues open through discomfort!!

Whether it's Tuite or Kyusho Jitsu, both have purposes and effectiveness, but it's knowing the five 'W' and 'How' to apply either effectively. Just flail away with your arms and legs instead of trying to apply Tuite or Kyusho Jitsu; that, the flailing and such, would have a more desired effect on your opponent.

Kyusho Jitsu has been widely criticized, and rightfully so, because many don't know what they're fully doing!!

Your thoughts, please!!

[JR 137]

I've done some stuff with kyusho in the past. It can be highly effective when done correctly. But IMO people take it way too far, just like everything else in the world. Tapping someone here and there won't knock out a true opponent. George Dillman has a ton of hypnotized (in one way or another) followers.

I used pressure points when I wrestled in high school, without realizing they were pressure points. Bury your chin in an opponent's biceps tendon while they're on their back to get that shoulder down for a pin; stick your forehead into the opponent's temple during a tie up to create just enough space to get under their arm; pressing on the floating ribs, knuckles rubbed on the back of the hand to break a lock, etc.

Hitting the carotid artery will cause some to black out or severely stunned long enough to follow up or get away. Ippon ken to the armpit or kidneys will cause some severe pain. Ippon nukite tapped on the side of the nose will get your finger bit off against the wrong guy.

Everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt. If you expect a KO by a slap in the face, you'd better have a 4.3 40 yard dash time.

[JR 137]

Another thing IMO is that people put way too much faith in eye gouges and groin grabs (not strikes to either). During wrestling, I had people try to get out of being pinned by sticking their fingers in my eye on two occasions, and grabbing my stuff on one occasion. They all hurt like hell; I remember them vividly 20+ years later. I held on long enough to get the pin all 3 times. If I had a joint lock or choke applied, I would've easily had enough time to snap the joint or choke the person out.

Those two "techniques" don't get the instant reaction of letting go and dropping to the ground people think they will. They will while fooling around with your friends or even during practice, but if someone's hell bent on hurting or killing you, they'll be able to deal with it for more than long enough to finish the job.

[CredoTe]

...not to mention the powerful effect that adrenaline has on a resisting opponent that renders most pressure-point techniques ineffective.

Our "kyusho jitsu" training only covers the main vitals that people know of naturally (they know because they're human). From head downwards, they are: eyes, temples, neck/throat (jugular/trachea/windpipe), groin. There are plenty of great targets on the torso center line, but we don't necessarily train them as "kyusho jitsu", just as good targets to strike once engaged in iri kumi (inside fighting).

[bushido_man96]

...not to mention the powerful effect that adrenaline has on a resisting opponent that renders most pressure-point techniques ineffective.

I agree, this is a huge consideration, one that isn't in play when experienced practitioners are conducting a demo with a cooperative uke who isn't actively trying to fight their instructor.

Our "kyusho jitsu" training only covers the main vitals that people know of naturally (they know because they're human). From head downwards, they are: eyes, temples, neck/throat (jugular/trachea/windpipe), groin. There are plenty of great targets on the torso center line, but we don't necessarily train them as "kyusho jitsu", just as good targets to strike once engaged in iri kumi (inside fighting).

I really like this approach, and in my time with Combat Hapkido and what I do with my defensive tactics training, is taking the opportunity to soften someone up with more reliable targets in order to facilitate our control tactics.

[sensei8]

Great responses, thus far!!

Having the OP behind me, please understand that just because Kyusho Jitsu, imho, isn't an exacting science, it surely doesn't mean that one shouldn't apply them at all. No! It means, that one has to know the who, what, where, when, how, and why per the circumstances of the moment.

Kyusho Jitsu is akin to touching ones hand to a flame; either you'll jerk your hand away from the flame, or you'll gauge the heat of the flame. Therefore, experience speaks towards many parameters, in that, effective confidence can dictate quite a lot about the results. The more inexperienced the practitioner, the more unsure, on the other hand, the more experienced the practitioner, the more sure.

Over confidence will kill you in a split second!!

Like in a game of chess, you had better be thinking 3-4 moves ahead in complete totality!!

[CredoTe]

Great responses, thus far!!

Having the OP behind me, please understand that just because Kyusho Jitsu, imho, isn't an exacting science, it surely doesn't mean that one shouldn't apply them at all. No! It means, that one has to know the who, what, where, when, how, and why per the circumstances of the moment.

Kyusho Jitsu is akin to touching ones hand to a flame; either you'll jerk your hand away from the flame, or you'll gauge the heat of the flame. Therefore, experience speaks towards many parameters, in that, effective confidence can dictate quite a lot about the results. The more inexperienced the practitioner, the more unsure, on the other hand, the more experienced the practitioner, the more sure.

Over confidence will kill you in a split second!!

Like in a game of chess, you had better be thinking 3-4 moves ahead in complete totality!!

Agreed... The vital areas I listed above are targets that we treat both as "kyusho jitsu" targets and as atemi targets (destructive / destructive power targets). Meaning, we see them as targets used to gain an advantage as per kyusho jitsu (say, when transitioning from iri kumi to tuidi) or as total destruction targets if the situation warrants it. They're never first / primary targets for us, only follow-up / secondary targets after the self-defense action (an uke or an uke and counterstrike) has already been initiated. Why? Because, like I mentioned previously, every human from infancy naturally knows that those areas hurt a lot / incur a lot of damage with little force applied. So, naturally, humans know to be wary of those areas and are expecting to be hit thereon.

IME, the situations I've been in, the assailants were way too amped up on adrenaline or drugs or both and didn't respond to any of the pressure points I attempted. Granted, my own experience in kyusho jitsu is limited, so I very well could have applied it incorrectly. But, nonetheless, only my tactics / skill in the other areas (te waza, atemi, iri kumi, tuidi) combined with my quick reactions due to training saved my life (which I did utilize the vital targets I mentioned previously).

Now, if there were a way to apply kyusho jitsu to all nerve / pressure points simultaneously, similarly to a stun gun / tazer, I am all for learning it...

[JR 137]

I always thought it would be cool to find a pressure point that releases the bladder. That would stop just about any attacker and embarrass the hell out of them. Imagine a guy talking all this trash to you in front of everyone, then a quick, light strike somewhere before he realizes it, and his pants are wet. Humane self defense at its finest IMO.

[CredoTe]

...not to mention the powerful effect that adrenaline has on a resisting opponent that renders most pressure-point techniques ineffective.

I agree, this is a huge consideration, one that isn't in play when experienced practitioners are conducting a demo with a cooperative uke who isn't actively trying to fight their instructor.

Absolutely... When I get really impassioned about this sort of stuff is, for instance, when I see other instructors in our region teaching pressure point tactics / "kyusho jitsu" techniques that are way too complicated and involved to ever work in a self-defense situation. The reason being is that these instructors fill their students' heads with notions and practices that will get them hurt.

I feel the same whether it's pressure points or basic bunkai/o-waza/oyo.

Our "kyusho jitsu" training only covers the main vitals that people know of naturally (they know because they're human). From head downwards, they are: eyes, temples, neck/throat (jugular/trachea/windpipe), groin. There are plenty of great targets on the torso center line, but we don't necessarily train them as "kyusho jitsu", just as good targets to strike once engaged in iri kumi (inside fighting).

I really like this approach, and in my time with Combat Hapkido and what I do with my defensive tactics training, is taking the opportunity to soften someone up with more reliable targets in order to facilitate our control tactics.

What you're saying here makes fighting sense to me...

[CredoTe]

I always thought it would be cool to find a pressure point that releases the bladder. That would stop just about any attacker and embarrass the hell out of them. Imagine a guy talking all this trash to you in front of everyone, then a quick, light strike somewhere before he realizes it, and his pants are wet. Humane self defense at its finest IMO.

You win...