Sine Wave vs Hip Twist

[Kwon_Artist]

I don't know if this has already been posted but I couldn't find anything but please delete or lock it if there is.

What does everyone think about this? When I did ITF Taekwon-Do, we did Sine wave which basically is meant to be Scientifically proven to have more of an impact? Since it has the down-up-down motions I can kinda agree to some extent since it's a natural motion to do, like when you walk etc.

I could never get used to the Sine wave though no matter how hard I had tried and it didn't really make sense to me as I was over-exaggerating it and since doing it, I felt I couldn't get any better at my Patterns/Kata because I felt it was holding me back against my potential abilities.

I however do think everyone is different and other people have a different view of it though, but I just don't think it was for me and to be quite frank, I am very happy to get out of Sine Wave.

Now, since I now do Shotokan Karate, we do the hip twist. Hip twist for me is very hard to learn but I can definitely see the effects already and I feel it's not holding me back as Sine Wave did, so now I feel like I'm in my element when I do Kata and feel I can reach my full potential.

Already i have improved alot since I have been doing Karate.

What are other peoples opinions on this matter? I would like to hear your views

[Wastelander]

I can't really comment from firsthand experience, because I've never used sine wave theory power generation. That said, it seems to me that the sine wave theory is an over-emphasis of one aspect of power generation. Basically, dropping your bodyweight into a strike can add power, and so can driving your weight upward, depending on how you are striking. That said, this rising and falling is only one aspect of power generation, and it seems the sine wave theory uses it to the exclusion of everything else.

Now, there are also people who do the same thing with hip twisting, and with driving forward. They will neglect all aspects of power generation aside from the one they want to specialize in. In reality, to get the most power out of your techniques, you must be able to rise/fall, twist, and drive/pull, all together, depending on the technique you are using.

[Montana]

In reality, to get the most power out of your techniques, you must be able to rise/fall, twist, and drive/pull, all together, depending on the technique you are using.

Exactly! If you only have one way to generate power you will be limited. Different methods makes you a more rounded and effective fighter imo.

[DWx]

I do ITF Taekwondo and as a result sine wave.

I've spoken about it in the past and why I continue to do it: http://www.karateforums.com/an-article-on-sine-wave-theory-vt47490.html

It's not for everyone but I think it's important to emphasise that sine wave is not supposed to be independent of hip twist but should be applied in conjunction with. There are some people who will teach it only and nothing else but hip twist and rotation should also be a big part of the movement too.

[CredoTe]

Our power generation incorporates the dynamic body mechanics from the Ti concept of gamanku. It is more than just "putting the hips into it", and it is not sine wave theory. Gamanku is a way to transfer (naturally) stored kinetic energy from your body to (and through) your opponent's body.

Any technique executed using gamanku "starts" with the floor/earth and your feet. This requires a stable, flexible, and mobile foundation (stance) in which your center of gravity/balance (tanden) remains unbroken. Your stance and tanden will dictate how and where the technique is delivered (target and direction of travel). If your tanden is broken at any point, you will have no gamanku.

As your legs engage power generation for the technique, the flow of kinetic energy begins going through the gamanku "core/zone" of your body: basically everything from your knees up to your shoulders, which includes gluts (buttocks), hips, torso, chest, shoulders, etc. The gluts/hips work together to turn your body into the technique. All of the torso muscles, e.g. lats, abs, etc, tighten/contract into the technique, followed by the shoulder/arm (including delivery of technique, "finish").

The speed of a technique, from the "start" of a technique to the delivery of the technique ("finish"), is however fast you can execute it correctly with gamanku. Like anything in MA, the more you practice, the faster you will get (and still be accurate and powerful).

Gamanku can be directed (body turning with hips pushing/pulling): (a) in a rotation action parallel to floor (like yaw), (b) in an up/down rotation action (like pitch), or © in a rotational action perpendicular to the floor (like roll). Keep in mind that, with gamanku, all body turning/hip pushing/pulling are executed as small movements, nothing big.

The yaw-like motion from item (a) is usually the one and only power motion studied/trained with in most karate dojos. And, moreover, most dojos only practice it with "hips" and do not incorporate anything else - "koshi koshi koshi!" you will mostly hear. Again, gamanku is more than just hips... it's full, dynamic body mechanics.

[hammer]

In my 14 years of TKD experience, we didn't do sine wave, but there was a rise/fall that we used in conjunction with a hip twist to get power. The end result, however, was that the body was square to the target at execution (at least on techniques in a front stance). We didn't wind up per se, but in transitions we did use opposing hip and shoulder positioning to create tension which added power.

In my Kyokushin experience, I have had to make some changes...when executing techniques, there is no rise/fall at all (we are told to imagine a ceiling right over our head), and the power comes from a combination of tension in the stance and hip and shoulder movements. At least that's what I can grasp at a 7th Kyu level...

Not sure I see either approach as being better than the other, just different ways to achieve the same means.

[Kwon_Artist]

Thanks for all your inputs guys and I agree with you! It does depend on the person at the end of the day but also it's not just the Sine Wave/Hip Twist which makes the moves etc effective, I think it's more than just that! I think both have their strengths but are much more when they are not independent!

[Luther unleashed]

I practice tang Soo do. I also practice a few different types of tang Soo do, just as Tae Kwon Do has different "styles" within itself, Tang Soo Do is the same.

The Tang Soo Do I practiced to 1st dan is essentially "Soo Bahk Do" and the use of hip is a major study point of the style. Without proper use of the hip, one can't truly grasp the art. I can't speak for every way of generating power but I happened to thing the use of hip, especially when used in kicking is very effective. I also happen to think that the use of speed and follow through are equally important. The "snap" in which you strike with is also a major factor. Think of the type of force you would require to break a board while holding only one end "speed break"! It would require snap, if you didn't have the proper snap you would simply pith the board.

Just sharing some thoughts about power generation from my experience because I have never practiced "sine wave" so I can't comment about its effectiveness! Take care.

[sensei8]

I suppose to each their own!!

Within Shindokan, we don't support the sine wave ideology because we believe that the excessiveness of the sine wave movement affects the apex power curve. That's our theory!

[bushido_man96]

In all my TKD experience, I've used hip twist, and no sine wave. I do ITF forms in my current style, but no sine wave. I've watched it a lot, but I don't think I could ever force myself to do it. At least, no the exaggerated motions seen in many ITF styles. But, that's just my preference.

I think initially, the idea of sine wave was supposed to be a subtle use of up and down motion, like what is natural when walking at a normal gait. But over the years, it has taken on different forms, and when General Choi went to North Korea, he reportedly brought them the "true" sine wave, which changed from what the ITF styles prior to his arrival in North Korea were using. I think its natural to have a little, little, rise and fall when moving forward and backward to do techniques. But I think when it becomes overly exaggerated, the technique is done for the sake of the sine wave, as opposed to making sure its adding anything power-wise to the technique.