Have you been offered rank with no test?

[IcemanSK]

This may sound odd to some of you, and not at all odd to others. I had heard of this happening vaguely in Arts other than my own. I had been a 2nd Dan in my Art for 19 years when I started helping out a friend teaching his class who was very high rank in his Art (other than my own). We were having a discussion about my want to get my 3rd Dan in my Art, but was having trouble (at that time) finding an instructor in my Art. My friend said, quite matter-of-factly, "I'll get you your 3rd Dan." By that, he meant promote me in his Art. I didn't take him up on his offer, BTW.

Has anyone else had that offer (or know first hand knowledge of someone who has had that offer)?

I wonder how often this occurs.

Edited April 4, 2017 by IcemanSK

[sensei8]

Nope; not me!!

[Wado Heretic]

Once; but as an incentive of sorts. One of my former instructors, when I was still involved in Kenpo (so nearly a decade ago now) was seeking to hand the club over to someone, as he was starting two new ones in other towns which would disallow him from teaching at the local club beyond once a week. He offered to award me Nidan grade if I took the club over, but I had already decided to leave at that point after earning my Shodan. It was actually the nail in the coffin for me to leave.

Another less exact example was when I was an acting assistant instructor. A brown belt who had been helping us for a while, but whose training was inconsistent, who was not going to take his black-belt exam at his own volition. Basically the instructor I was working with gave him his black-belt. Now the instructor I was working with was Nidan in rank, and the organisation I was with allowed Nidan to award up to Ikkyu and Junior Black-Belt grade; so this award to an adult without a formal grading was very much against procedure, or how I felt things should be done.

So I have seen it, and it has always been why I have walked away from a situation.

[The Pred]

Nope; not me!!

Didn't you force them to test you for your Kudan. Since you forced them, did they change the by-laws so that all future Kudan's promotions require a testing.

[Montana]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh yeah I have! I used to be friends with a "gentleman" that was the head and founder of the AKKA (American Korean Karate Assoc) based out of Great Falls, Mt.

Essentially, he was a TKD 3rd degree black belt that decided to self-promote himself up to 9th Dan, and start his own system and association. He was a nice enough guy and we became friends, and he put on fantastic well run tournaments!

Long story short, a year or so after he elevated himself in rank he was on my neighborhood (about 250 miles from where he lived) and dropped in to watch my class. At the end of the class he stood up in front of my class and gave a glowing, flowery speech about what a good sensei I was, how proud they should be to take classes from me...yadda yadda yadda. Then he whips out a 3rd Dan certificate from his association in TKD (which I've never so much as had one single class in) and hands it to me. He advised me that this certificate is as good as any his association gives and nowhere on it did it say honorary or such.

I was flabbergasted to say the least!

Interesting to note, after the students had left and we went out for a beer to talk, he asked me "Since I gave you a 3rd Dan in my system, can you give me one in yours?"

He was collecting certificates from various people in different systems to hang on his dojo walls..I guess to add credibility to what he was doing.

I thanked him for what he had said to my students about me, and the "honor" it was to have him give me a 3rd dan in "his" system..but said I was not comfortable giving him ANY rank in the system I teach (it's not MY system afterall) without taking classes from me.

Then I added..."Do you want your certificate back? lol he said "No..." but was clearly disappointed.

He died friendless (very long story there) and the AKKA, as far as I know, went with him.

[sensei8]

Nope; not me!!

WAIT...yes I have!! My Kudan; it was offered to me by our Hombu when I was voted to be the current Kaicho. I believe that I've written about how it came about here at KF...

http://www.karateforums.com/a-testing-that-i-ve-never-wanted-vt45133.html

There might be other posts I've written speaking about this darn thing. Dai-Soke understood why I refused to comply to what's written in our By-Laws. So much so that he told the Hombu to back off. They did, but they continued to press me shortly after Dai-Soke passed away...our Hombu was trying to force me to accept the Kudan per our By-Laws, but I refused them time and time again until I tried to call their bluff by telling them to test me...and they did...my bluff backfired.

Edited June 4, 2015 by sensei8

[sensei8]

Nope; not me!!

Didn't you force them to test you for your Kudan. Since you forced them, did they change the by-laws so that all future Kudan's promotions require a testing.

Yes, I did force the Hombu to test me for Kudan...or shut-up...they tested me.

No, the By-Laws remain un-amended in this regard of Kudan. All ranks up to and including Hachidan must be tested for. Kudan is still awarded according to the elected title of Kaicho. My Kudan test was the last, and only Kudan testing cycle.

Before...

*Kaicho = Kudan

*Soke Type = Judan

We've eliminated the Soke types! Therefore, Judan is no longer awarded as it is stated in the amended By-Laws.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Handing out Dan ranks and certificates without any sort of evaluation is part of martial arts politics. It exists everywhere martial arts governing bodies are present. Even the cradle of martial arts are not spared by this ego-inflating practice. It is not unheard of for the head of a governing body to offer such promotion for others to join them.

A friend who had earned a 3rd dan was offered a 5th Dan if he agreed to join an organization other than the one he had earned the 3rd Dan. He refused without a second thought and was right to do so.

A dan grade represents the formal recognition of training effort by one's teacher. This is far more important than the material symbols of belts and certificates or the artificial prestige these might give.

Respect and honour towards oneself, one's teacher and the efforts of both must prevail over these sorts of trivial pursuits. After alll at the end, what matters is the skills one knows one has and these are within the man, not a piece of fancy cloth or paper.

[JR 137]

I think after 6th or 7th dan many traditional schools don't have a physical test for rank; it's merit based. Or perhaps better put, the rank is reflective of what the practitioner has contributed to the art or advanced the art or arts in general.

What's wrong with merit based dan promotion when the practitioner is very high rank before the promotion? If they're at this point, they've proven time and again that they're worthy from a technique perspective. Are they learning new material such as kata, joint locks, strategy, etc. that they must demonstrate functional knowledge of? Or are they refining and furthering what they've learned at rep latively speaking lower ranks?

Add to all of that a very high ranked practitioner is usually advanced in age. Are the physical skills of an 80 year old man as sharp and crisp as they were when he was 30, 40, 50, etc.?

I agree with a lot of what's already been said. Perhaps my points aren't in the spirit of what was truly being asked in the OP. However, after a certain point of mastery, it's about what you've done to advance the art, not what you're physically capable of. Does a person truly need another physical exam after they've proven themselves physically worthy over the course of several decades? How much better do you expect an 8th dan to be at punching or kicking than a 7th dan? If they're not as sharp physically, do they fail the test and are asked to try again later on?

Then there's post-humous promotions.

Again, probably not the original intent of the thread, but being promoted without a test has its place sometimes.

Edited June 4, 2015 by JR 137

[JR 137]

Crazy question perhaps, but do people who don't teach reach high dan ranks? Do people who don't teach on a regular basis (if at all) progress much higher than, say, 6th dan? Not just teaching groups of students, but perhaps solely teaching advanced students.

Come to think of it, I haven't seen it. I think you have to be teaching advanced students regularly in order to be promoted past the basic "master" level (an oxymoron if I've ever said one), but I could be wrong.

I haven't reached anywhere near the level I've discussed in my last 2 posts, nor do I have any personal friends who have, so my logic may be way off. The only ones I personally know are practicioners in systems I've been involved with and haven't had an in-depth conversation about it.