Do we sometimes act hyportical?-Age and rank

[JR 137]

Excellent post DWx. That post was more for the people who have an age requirement for black belt. I'm not an MA instructor nor a dojo owner, head of an organization, etc., so I don't have any first hand experience with the whys and why nots of an age requirement.

I think there should be one, and it should be stuck to. If I ran my own dojo or organization, I'd set it at 18. I think it should be an adult thing. But I totally understand and respect why others don't have this stance. I'm also opposed to junior black belt for reasons I stated in another thread. I also stated there that I respect why schools do it, and I wish I could agree, but something inside me tells me if I had my own organization, I wouldn't have it. I'd have a different belt entirely - maybe a camouflage belt that represents all the kyu colors or even a paneled belt, like the red and white labeled belt some high ranking black belts wear, that had every color they completed.

Again, just my uneducated opinion. I probably put black belt on a pedestal that's a bit too high.

[The Pred]

Now how can I say this with out being politically incorrect. A 16 year old male is physically stronger than an 18 year old female, yet, we would still (and rightfully so) let that female get the black belt. Not trying to sound offensive.

There are always the X is better than Y, yet X isn't eligible yet due to a slight difference in age. But you have to draw the line somewhere. The drinking age is 21. What about a 19 year old who's fighting in a war, risking their life everyday? Have they not proven their maturity? Of course he/she has. Do we make an exception an put an asterisk on their ID card that says it's ok for them? No. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just stating fact. If someone is 16 and is better than an 18 year old that is worthy of their rank, then they'll still be worthy (barring unforeseen circumstances) when they're technically old enough to hold the rank. If they can't wait 2 more years to officially obtain that rank, then maybe they really didn't deserve it after all.

You have to draw a line somewhere. Their will always be people who are exceptional or make you question the rule and make it seem unfair. But the line has to be drawn IMO. If your rule is 18, it's 18. If it's 16, it's 16. I'm not a die-hard believer in the rules are always the rules, regardless of the situation, but if its a great rule 99% of the time, enforcing it that last 1% of the time shouldn't cause major turmoil. If a student quits because he/she can't wait another year or two, they'll find another reason not too long after you've made the exception. Or they'll point to that exception next time a rule is enforced. Or others will.

I'm a middle school teacher, so I'm a bit biased. I see parents and students point to an exception made for very good reason, and think it should apply to their child who has a different circumstance and the exception does not apply.

Is it necessary though to have an age requirement? Drinking age, driving age and so on are set by governments because they cannot possibly hope to assess the maturity and character of each individual due to the shear number of people applying and holding licenses. The advantage we have in martial arts training is that we will spend 100's of hours training with an individual before they test for blackbelt so one would hope we can say something about the individual person and attest to their character rather than look at them as another statistic. We can actually pass a judgement on their maturity.

I say this every time this type of topic comes up... but it really comes down to what you think a blackbelt represents and which doors it opens. I personally find it uncomfortable that an individual can surpass the physical and emotional requirements we associate with blackbelt yet be held back and barred from progressing within the curriculum simply because they are too young.

I probably should add to this that I was awarded my 1st dan aged 14 and now at 24 hold my 4th dan so this probably colours my view..

Yeah, I mean if a student starts at 4, earns his brown belt in 5 years. He/she will be 9. So in the 9 years what do you? Do you have the student pay the normal tution rate? Or do you give them a black belt discount for waiting long? Or perhaps free quality gi for waiting.

[JR 137]

Students starting at 4 usually go through a pre-k type program where they get electrical tape stripes on their belt. Some places call it Tiny Tigers or Little Dragons or some other name. They usually don't start the junior syllabus until 6. But if they're 6 and earn a brown belt or even a junior black belt in 5 years (making them 11), what do they do for the next 5-7 years until they're eligible for adult shodan? According to someone here, some places have junior dan rankings where they learn the rest of the syllabus to adult shodan. They need to do that to keep them going. Could you realistically blame a 13 year old for quitting because they didn't learn any new material in the last 2-3 years and won't learn any more new material for another 3-5 years?

I get it. I just wish the belt color was anything but black.

[sensei8]

What we're discussing here, imho, is Tenure!! Not all governing bodies determine/dictate the Tenure; and for those governing bodies that govern Tenure, it is what it is, and nobody will change it...except for the governing body.

Is it required, Tenure, that is? It is if the governing body says it is!!

[The Pred]

What we're discussing here, imho, is Tenure!! Not all governing bodies determine/dictate the Tenure; and for those governing bodies that govern Tenure, it is what it is, and nobody will change it...except for the governing body.

Is it required, Tenure, that is? It is if the governing body says it is!!

, Now I remember you saying your Soke founded the art you study in his 30s. Did he promote himself from his current rank to Judan. Or did he slowly go up in rank. But if he did become a judan at 30ish, why would the by-laws be ex amount of age for say a rokudan. Please, I mean no disrespect.

[sensei8]

What we're discussing here, imho, is Tenure!! Not all governing bodies determine/dictate the Tenure; and for those governing bodies that govern Tenure, it is what it is, and nobody will change it...except for the governing body.

Is it required, Tenure, that is? It is if the governing body says it is!!

, Now I remember you saying your Soke founded the art you study in his 30s. Did he promote himself from his current rank to Judan. Or did he slowly go up in rank. But if he did become a judan at 30ish, why would the by-laws be ex amount of age for say a rokudan. Please, I mean no disrespect.

No disrespect taken!!

We're speaking about 2 separate Tenure's; rank Tenure isn't age Tenure. In Shindokan, we do not place any Tenure with age; only with rank Tenure. Having said that, no one can be promoted to JBB until they reach 13 years of age, and no one can be promoted to Shodan until they reach 18 years of age.

Inasmuch, there's no specific age Tenure requirements for someone reaching, i.e., Rokudan, just rank Tenure.

As to the bold type above...

http://www.karateforums.com/question-for-sensei8-vt48223.html

I refer you to the bottom of page #1, 2nd paragraph of said thread.

Edited June 3, 2015 by sensei8

[The Pred]

What we're discussing here, imho, is Tenure!! Not all governing bodies determine/dictate the Tenure; and for those governing bodies that govern Tenure, it is what it is, and nobody will change it...except for the governing body.

Is it required, Tenure, that is? It is if the governing body says it is!!

, Now I remember you saying your Soke founded the art you study in his 30s. Did he promote himself from his current rank to Judan. Or did he slowly go up in rank. But if he did become a judan at 30ish, why would the by-laws be ex amount of age for say a rokudan. Please, I mean no disrespect.

No disrespect taken!!

We're speaking about 2 separate Tenure's; rank Tenure isn't age Tenure. In Shindokan, we do not place any Tenure with age; only with rank Tenure.

As to the bold type above...

http://www.karateforums.com/question-for-sensei8-vt48223.html

I refer you to the bottom of page #1, 2nd paragraph of said thread.

Yes now I remember !

[sensei8]

What we're discussing here, imho, is Tenure!! Not all governing bodies determine/dictate the Tenure; and for those governing bodies that govern Tenure, it is what it is, and nobody will change it...except for the governing body.

Is it required, Tenure, that is? It is if the governing body says it is!!

, Now I remember you saying your Soke founded the art you study in his 30s. Did he promote himself from his current rank to Judan. Or did he slowly go up in rank. But if he did become a judan at 30ish, why would the by-laws be ex amount of age for say a rokudan. Please, I mean no disrespect.

No disrespect taken!!

We're speaking about 2 separate Tenure's; rank Tenure isn't age Tenure. In Shindokan, we do not place any Tenure with age; only with rank Tenure.

As to the bold type above...

http://www.karateforums.com/question-for-sensei8-vt48223.html

I refer you to the bottom of page #1, 2nd paragraph of said thread.

Yes now I remember !

Cool! I've edited my latest post above to give a more sound answer, and not so generally general.

[The Pred]

What we're discussing here, imho, is Tenure!! Not all governing bodies determine/dictate the Tenure; and for those governing bodies that govern Tenure, it is what it is, and nobody will change it...except for the governing body.

Is it required, Tenure, that is? It is if the governing body says it is!!

, Now I remember you saying your Soke founded the art you study in his 30s. Did he promote himself from his current rank to Judan. Or did he slowly go up in rank. But if he did become a judan at 30ish, why would the by-laws be ex amount of age for say a rokudan. Please, I mean no disrespect.

No disrespect taken!!

We're speaking about 2 separate Tenure's; rank Tenure isn't age Tenure. In Shindokan, we do not place any Tenure with age; only with rank Tenure.

As to the bold type above...

http://www.karateforums.com/question-for-sensei8-vt48223.html

I refer you to the bottom of page #1, 2nd paragraph of said thread.

Yes now I remember !

Cool! I've edited my latest post above to give a more sound answer, and not so generally general.

I just saw the edit, now after Hachidan does tenure rank not matter. Espically if one becomes the Kaicho like you were/are and they say you have to be a Kudan.

[chiliphil1]

Now how can I say this with out being politically incorrect. A 16 year old male is physically stronger than an 18 year old female, yet, we would still (and rightfully so) let that female get the black belt. Not trying to sound offensive.

There are always the X is better than Y, yet X isn't eligible yet due to a slight difference in age. But you have to draw the line somewhere. The drinking age is 21. What about a 19 year old who's fighting in a war, risking their life everyday? Have they not proven their maturity? Of course he/she has. Do we make an exception an put an asterisk on their ID card that says it's ok for them? No. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just stating fact. If someone is 16 and is better than an 18 year old that is worthy of their rank, then they'll still be worthy (barring unforeseen circumstances) when they're technically old enough to hold the rank. If they can't wait 2 more years to officially obtain that rank, then maybe they really didn't deserve it after all.

You have to draw a line somewhere. Their will always be people who are exceptional or make you question the rule and make it seem unfair. But the line has to be drawn IMO. If your rule is 18, it's 18. If it's 16, it's 16. I'm not a die-hard believer in the rules are always the rules, regardless of the situation, but if its a great rule 99% of the time, enforcing it that last 1% of the time shouldn't cause major turmoil. If a student quits because he/she can't wait another year or two, they'll find another reason not too long after you've made the exception. Or they'll point to that exception next time a rule is enforced. Or others will.

I'm a middle school teacher, so I'm a bit biased. I see parents and students point to an exception made for very good reason, and think it should apply to their child who has a different circumstance and the exception does not apply.

Is it necessary though to have an age requirement? Drinking age, driving age and so on are set by governments because they cannot possibly hope to assess the maturity and character of each individual due to the shear number of people applying and holding licenses. The advantage we have in martial arts training is that we will spend 100's of hours training with an individual before they test for blackbelt so one would hope we can say something about the individual person and attest to their character rather than look at them as another statistic. We can actually pass a judgement on their maturity.

I say this every time this type of topic comes up... but it really comes down to what you think a blackbelt represents and which doors it opens. I personally find it uncomfortable that an individual can surpass the physical and emotional requirements we associate with blackbelt yet be held back and barred from progressing within the curriculum simply because they are too young.

I probably should add to this that I was awarded my 1st dan aged 14 and now at 24 hold my 4th dan so this probably colours my view..

I think you are right on with your analogy. I have seen young BB but not immature ones. I think that most instructors are pretty good about promoting those who deserve it and not those who simply show up for class. While some of the younger ones may lack some strength they do tend to possess the mental maturity required. I will admit I have not run across a ton of youth bb's but the ones I have seen have been worthy of the rank IMHO. Now, I have seen a ton of students make it to 1st kyu and no further, that shows me that there are standards in place.