Wooden Dummies for other Martial arts

[Judodad_karateson]

I've always been a fan of the Japanese arts. I've never trained in other styles. But the Mu ren zhuang of the Chinese styles has always interested me.

What are you thoughts on other styles cross training with them?

Are the useful for Karate at all, or do they serve a specific training purpose not native to karate?

How hard are they to learn to use on your own, without a Sifu?

[bushido_man96]

I think they can have value for other styles. The key is experimenting with movements you do, and then seeing how they can apply to the wooden dummy.

[CredoTe]

Okinawan karate-do does implement a "wooden dummy" of sorts into their training... It's called a Sagi-machiwara. It's basically a hanging log supported from above and is used for much of the same concepts as a wooden dummy.

[sensei8]

Okinawan karate-do does implement a "wooden dummy" of sorts into their training... It's called a Sagi-machiwara. It's basically a hanging log supported from above and is used for much of the same concepts as a wooden dummy.

Oh, yes; Shindokan trains with the Sagi-machiwara, but Shindokan also trains with the WCD even more so. I don't know of many Karate styles that train with the WCD, if any outside of Shindokan.

[Judodad_karateson]

Thanks, I'll have to look into this Sagi-Machiwara!

[CredoTe]

Okinawan karate-do does implement a "wooden dummy" of sorts into their training... It's called a Sagi-machiwara. It's basically a hanging log supported from above and is used for much of the same concepts as a wooden dummy.

Oh, yes; Shindokan trains with the Sagi-machiwara, but Shindokan also trains with the WCD even more so. I don't know of many Karate styles that train with the WCD, if any outside of Shindokan.

That's intriguing... I've seen you mention that a few times before; I'd be interesting in seeing how you train on it, and then how you incorporate the concepts you train on the dummy into application/partner drills. I'm guessing your applications are more Tuide/Tuite related...?

[CredoTe]

Okinawan karate-do does implement a "wooden dummy" of sorts into their training... It's called a Sagi-machiwara. It's basically a hanging log supported from above and is used for much of the same concepts as a wooden dummy.

Oh, yes; Shindokan trains with the Sagi-machiwara, but Shindokan also trains with the WCD even more so. I don't know of many Karate styles that train with the WCD, if any outside of Shindokan.

That's intriguing... I've seen you mention that a few times before; I'd be interesting in seeing how you train on it, and then how you incorporate the concepts you train on the dummy into application/partner drills. I'm guessing your applications are more Tuide/Tuite related...?

Or, Kakie/Kaki-uke related ...? I suppose, in some ways, these can be considered Tuide/Tuite related...

[Spartacus Maximus]

On okinawa I never saw anything akin to the Chinese wooden dummy. A few karateka were creative enough and had the building skills to make their own contraptions but most used a machiwara, which is used only for strikes. The three most common type are a flat board, a round post or a square post. As mentioned by another poster there is also a hanging version.

By far the most interesting thing I found was a cylindrical "body" with a clever rope and pully mechanism to power "limbs". It was used to train simultaneous block/strike techniques.

[Wastelander]

I've used a mook jong (Wing Chun dummy) in the past, but I didn't like it very much. I haven't used a sagi-makiwara, except for when I use a smaller heavy bag as one, and that's not exactly the same. I would like one, but just haven't gotten around to making one.

I will say that karate does have two types of traditional training dummies, that I'm aware of, but they've largely fallen out of use. The first is the tou, which is a solid round post that usually has one arm, but sometimes more (like a mook jong), and often they have various types of padding added to strike.

These are two examples of tou from Garry Lever Sensei's dojo. The first is a very simple one--just a rope-wrapped post with one arm and a tire for kicking/sweeping. The second is fancier, and features moveable arms made of spa tubing so they can be bent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTw_qfIMJbY

The other type of traditional karate training dummy is the kakiya, or kakete-biki. It is also a round post with some type of padding (usually), but it features an arm on a hinge that can be moved up and down, and sometimes slightly side-to-side. That arm was traditionally weighted down with stones, to give it resistance, but these days people tend to use springs or bungee cords. This article from Chris Denwood Sensei discusses this type of training dummy:

https://www.chrisdenwood.com/blog/kakiya-the-okinawan-wooden-man

[Wado Heretic]

In my understanding the Tou is a an upright bamboo bundle, where as the Ude Kitae was the solid striking post that some times has arms. I could be wrong, but I was certain of it so if I am wrong some clarification would be appreciated.

Anyway; I would say that the use of such an implement very much depends on your current goals as a karate-ka.

What are you thoughts on other styles cross training with them?

The mook jong, and similar devices in Southern Chinese Martial arts, evolved primarily as a device for the training of Hua jin (dissolving energy: think Aiki for an imperfect analogue), which in Wing Chun and the Southern arts is done by trapping and sticking which requires the practice of maintaining pressure. Similarly, such a tactic towards eliminating an attack requires one to condition the arms, and practice entering techniques. AN advantage of the wooden dummy is that no matter the particular exercise, to perform it well you must be aware of all the "dangers" presented by the dummy.

If your approach to karate resolves around similar concepts, as a lot of Naha derived systems do, it could perhaps be a useful device for you. This is also true of other disciplines using similar ideas.

Are the useful for Karate at all, or do they serve a specific training purpose not native to karate?

As I stated prior; it depends on your goals as a karate-ka, and your understanding of the process of Bunkai. As mentioned by Wastelander, there are the devices of the Ude Kitae (Tou maybe?), and Kakite-Bikei, and there are only so many ways to fight effectively. Although there are specific exercises for the mook jong, the ideas it is designed to assist in the study of are rather universal to the nature of hand-to-hand combat.

If your study of karate involves Kakei-kumite on any level; you should perhaps explore the use of such devices, I would advise the Kakite-Bikei, as it would allow you to condition for such methods more directly compared to other impact tool.

How hard are they to learn to use on your own, without a Sifu?

Easier than it used to be; there are plenty of instructional videos, and good books out there to learn particular drills and so forth. However, beginning any type of conditioning should ideally be done under the eyes of a trained individual, but saying that if one trains responsibly and pays attention to their body it should be safe enough.

I used to use one daily (it is currently in storage) though mine is now heavily modified, and incorporates elements from the Kakite-Bikei, innovations suggested in Bruce Lee's writing, and some of my own invention. Traditional drills no longer work perfectly, so has been an exercise in discovery regarding it's use; and I have never been injured using it.