Unworthy or undesirable students

[CredoTe]

There's only a few occasions in which we had to expel a student (no, not the same student multiple times). In each case, it involved a student that had a disagreement with us, but instead of working it out respectfully and professionally with us, the student took to disrespecting us and our dojo by directly trying to damage our reputation (and business). We had no choice but to expel each student (only one student per incident). Thankfully, the community around us knows us as a good dojo.

Most of the time, when a troublesome student starts to churn, we just train harder. Usually, the troublesome student with either capitulate and fully engage in our dojo or leave (without us having to really say anything).

[Spartacus Maximus]

I suspect that there are more undesirable types who leave or are explicitly expelled than cases where the instructor refuses to take them as students.

Does everybody really get the benefit of doubt or are there types of people who should never be accepted?

Is it feasible or acceptable in this day and age to test a potential student's character(patience etc...) before agreeing to teach?

[CredoTe]

I suspect that there are more undesirable types who leave or are explicitly expelled than cases where the instructor refuses to take them as students.

Does everybody really get the benefit of doubt or are there types of people who should never be accepted?

Is it feasible or acceptable in this day and age to test a potential student's character(patience etc...) before agreeing to teach?

I don't know about other nations, but in the United States, at least, businesses open to the public are not legally allowed to deny business to any customer. We could get sued for discrimination based on whatever grounds a good lawyer can come up with.

There are exceptions, like if a customer goes into a business in a belligerent manner and disturbs people, then that person can be expelled from the premises. But, generally speaking, if someone walks in and asks for service (i.e. to join karate classes), then we have to serve that person.

It didn't used to be that way, but it is, now. This is one of the reasons, at least from what I've discovered, that some dojos in the US are becoming private institutions (no open invitations, not open to the public, admission to join is gained through a sponsor - someone who's a member).

[Spartacus Maximus]

The USA is certainly known for being a very litigious country, yet with the sheer number of places and people teaching martial arts I doubt anyone would waste their time and resources attempting to sue simply for being refused or turned away with a justifiable reason. Any claims of discrimination would have to be proven by the accusing party.

While traveling in the Far East and before finding a teacher, I was refused and turned away always with the same reason. A designated senior student would curtly yet politely explain that new students were not accepted at the time.

With words like that, it is impossible to claim discrimination no matter how much I may have been convinced that the master there did not want to teach me. Much later, I learned the hard way that and anyone wanting to train has a better chance of getting through the door if properly introduced, preferably before or after training is done. Kindness, courtesy, guts and tenacity worked things out eventually.

[CredoTe]

The USA is certainly known for being a very litigious country, yet with the sheer number of places and people teaching martial arts I doubt anyone would waste their time and resources attempting to sue simply for being refused or turned away with a justifiable reason. Any claims of discrimination would have to be proven by the accusing party.

While traveling in the Far East and before finding a teacher, I was refused and turned away always with the same reason. A designated senior student would curtly yet politely explain that new students were not accepted at the time.

With words like that, it is impossible to claim discrimination no matter how much I may have been convinced that the master there did not want to teach me. Much later, I learned the hard way that and anyone wanting to train has a better chance of getting through the door if properly introduced, preferably before or after training is done. Kindness, courtesy, guts and tenacity worked things out eventually.

I agree that a vast majority of people wouldn't take the time to file a lawsuit for being turned away from an MA school. I mentioned discrimination because that's the primary justification for the public consumption laws that exist in the United States, but there are others. Any business open for public consumption, of either goods or services, cannot legally turn away customers.

However, as you mention, having an enrollment structure / policy is one way to enable dojos to try and pick students they feel would be worthy. However, this still comes with stipulations: when enrollment periods are open, they still must accept pretty much any student that signs up regardless of whether or not the dojo feels they are worthy.

The dojos that are private, or were public but went private, use enrollment periods to discern which students they accept and which they reject. The part where you mention being properly introduced is the key for private dojos. You have to know someone, or be introduced to someone, that is a member of a private dojo you wish to join. A lot of times, even after you've been introduced, you have to have a member of the dojo elect to be your sponsor in order for you to join. Very similar to private clubs that exist.

[Montana]

I used to have a sign on my dojo wall by the entrance that said:

The instructor reserves the right to refuse training to ANYONE, at ANY TIME, and for ANY REASON!

 

There were many, many people that I refused to teach for one reson or the other. Known bullies, bad attitudes, glory seekers, etc.

And yes, as I've stated many times on this forum, I have kicked out a number of students, both adult and child, out of my classes for various reasons.

[sensei8]

Has anyone ever turned away a potential student because of a bad impression of character? Has anyone thrown out a student for the same reasons?

Yes...Yes!!

More than I care to remember. And not from just my dojo's!! No. I've done this as well at our Hombu, many, many times. To your bolded questions above...I hold no candle to our Dai-Soke; he had ZERO TOLERANCE. I'd say he probably taught just as many as he's shown where the door was!! I called him a mean cuss to his face...and lived!! He just had an evil smirk on his face!!

Edited May 25, 2015 by sensei8

[Spartacus Maximus]

I remember reading an account about one of the old masters of the pre-WWII era who said he refused to accept some people because they had what he called a "murderous disposition". One sensei I had trained under refused the same person twice because of reported dealings with an organized crime family.

That was probably one of the few instances where someone would be turned away. There was also absolute zero tolerance for what was called "stupid vs stupid fights".

If there was a list of types to never accept, known or suspected criminals would be at the top. For anyone else, an attitude adjustment might work.

[sensei8]

I remember reading an account about one of the old masters of the pre-WWII era who said he refused to accept some people because they had what he called a "murderous disposition". One sensei I had trained under refused the same person twice because of reported dealings with an organized crime family.

That was probably one of the few instances where someone would be turned away. There was also absolute zero tolerance for what was called "stupid vs stupid fights".

If there was a list of types to never accept, known or suspected criminals would be at the top. For anyone else, an attitude adjustment might work.

Solid post!!

[devil dog]

Many. It's not hard to send them packing, you just show them the door and tell them they are no longer welcome in the dojo.

I have told students to leave for many reasons however the most frequent reason is being a punk.