Question for Sensei8

[The Pred]

Now I browse these forms on a regular basis, however, I hardly post. However, I do find Sensei8 posts to be highly informative. Now here's my question, I remember seeing the post you made of when you started your martial arts training and when you earned your Hachidan. Did you feel at the time you met the so called time in grade requriements as some people say you need. I.E. Shodan-Nidan 2 years, Nidan-Sandan 3, etc. Or was that promotion political in nature.

[sensei8]

Now I browse these forms on a regular basis, however, I hardly post. However, I do find Sensei8 posts to be highly informative. Now here's my question, I remember seeing the post you made of when you started your martial arts training and when you earned your Hachidan. Did you feel at the time you met the so called time in grade requriements as some people say you need. I.E. Shodan-Nidan 2 years, Nidan-Sandan 3, etc. Or was that promotion political in nature.

A very fair question; thank you for asking.

First off, if you knew our Soke and Dai-Soke, you'd know one thing for sure...they both won't promote anyone unless they earned it, therefore, no promotion was political in nature.

No one's allowed to attend a testing cycle UNLESS the Hombu had authorized the testing candidate to do so. Soke was the Hombu!! In short, if their signatures weren't affixed to the Petition For Testing by BOTH of them, when they were alive, that candidate wasn't invited/allowed to the testing cycle. This includes for anyone wanting to test at their home dojo, and especially if they wanted to test at the Hombu's Annual Testing Cycle, held once a year in June/July. Soke and Dai-Soke denied and failed many more than the opposite!!

Having said that, both Soke and Dai-Soke created an iron clad tight By-Laws, and no ambiguity ever existed. Within the By-Laws, Time In Grade, per Soke, were general guidelines. Therefore, if Soke believed that a testing cycle was warranted, he'd sign them off to attend said testing cycle. He had that authority, and only he had that authority. Dai-Soke had the authority, but not until he became Dai-Soke in 2008. But, as Kaicho, he didn't possess that authority.

To the core of your question...

For now, I'll speak towards my Karate-do, and not my Kobudo...

*1964|Enrolled in Shindokan Saitou-ryu Karate-do in Canoga Park, CA; Shindokan Hombu

*1970|Earned Junior Black Belt; Shindokan Saitou-ryu Karate-do

That's 6 years to JBB; at the time I earned my JBB, I was 13 years old. Per our By-Laws and the like, no one under the age of 18 years old can earn, thereby possess a Shodan.

*1975|Earned Shodan; Shindokan Saitou-ryu Karate-do

*1976|Earned Nidan; Shindokan Saitou-ryu Karate-do

That's a normal Time In Grade; 1 year, 1975 to 1976.

*1977|Earned Sandan; Shindokan Saitou-ryu Karate-do

1975 to 1977 is two full years after earning Shodan. Seems too fast, huh?!?

Well, remember I was literally stuck in being a JBB for 5 long years. However, Dai-Soke, then Kaicho, kept teaching us/me, regardless of the fact that we/I was bounded by the charters of the By-Laws, written by Soke. Kaicho/Dai-Soke had the authority to teach us/me because we/I were his students, and he was Kaicho.

When it came to my 18th birthday, I was invited by Soke to test for my Shodan in 1975. Then, in 1976, I was, again, invited by Soke to test for my Nidan; these two tests fit within the Time In Grade. Then, in 1977, I was invited to test for my Sandan by Soke, and according to Kaicho, I was more than ready to test for my Sandan. 5 years of serious training under Kaicho earned me the opportunity to do so.

*1980|Earned Yondan; Shindokan Saitou-ryu Karate-do

That's 3 years in Time In Grade; 1 year short of what's written in our By-Laws. Yet, Soke invited me to test for my Yondan, nonetheless!!

*1984|Earned Godan; Shindokan Saitou-ryu Karate-do

That's a full 4 years in Time In Grade. Soke invited me to test for my Godan. That's 20 years from the time that I started to train in Shindokan to my earning my Godan.

*1988|Earned Rokudan; Shindokan Saitou-ryu Karate-do

I shouldn't be able to test until 1989, but I test for my Rokudan in 1988, 1 year short of what's written in our By-Laws; I was invited to test by Soke.

*1995|Earned Nanadan; Shindokan Saitou-ryu Karate-do

This is 7 years; 1 year beyond the acceptable Time In Grade had passed. That was due to Soke denying my Petition To Test in 1994; no reason given, and I didn't ask. A DENIED is enough for me.

*2000|Earned Hachidan; Shindokan Saitou-ryu Karate-do

5 years has elapsed since I earned my Nanadan; 2 years short of the acceptable Time In Grade of 7 years required to testing cycle. Soke invited me to test for my Hachidan.

*2013|Earned Kudan; Shindokan Saitou-ryu Karate-do

This one, now this one, imho, was political in nature. Soke and Dai-Soke had passed away, and the current Hierarchy pressed the issue more times than I care to remember...angered me to no end with their endless pestering. I've always refused numerous times to be promoted to Kudan. Per our By-Laws, the current Kaicho MUST be promoted to Kudan! This to me was hogwash, and I didn't want to have anything to do with it. My Karate-do isn't dependent on my rank, but in my knowledge and experience, and no rank/title will direct me to accept an "ego based" rank for the right to appease some By-Law.

I forced the issue: TEST ME FOR IT, if not, take your offer and...well...thanks but no thanks!! They called my counter and tested me. Dai-Soke instructed me to accept Kudan per the By-Laws, but understood my reasons why I didn't want it...ever, and he even told the Hombu to "back off", before he passed away!!

Every Petition To Test was signed by my Sensei/Kaicho/Dai-Soke, and then Soke signed off on them. At times, both Kaicho and myself were surprised that Soke had decided to sign them, APPROVED. No one, not even Kaicho/Dai-Soke can never tell Soke what to do, nor would Kaicho have ever dared to. Suggest, yes, demand, no way!!

To Soke and to Dai-Soke, Time In Grade, for example, were only formalities that can be looked over because..."What can a rule see that I can't??" Both were staunched proponents of the By-Laws and the like, but, as important as the By-Laws and the like were, they don't govern Soke!!

*EDIT: Spelling and Grammar errors

Edited May 3, 2015 by sensei8

[The Pred]

Very insightful, thanks for the reply.

[sensei8]

You're welcome!!

I was sitting here re-reading my previous post, and I realized something. In my 50 years in Shindokan, I've only reached full Time In Grade in the Dan grades the following times:

Shodan to Nidan...1 full years

Yondan to Godan...4 full years

Rokudan to Nanadan...7 full years; one year beyond Time In Grade

Hachidan to Kudan...13 full years; however, I won't count this one because I feel that I was forced my the current Hombu's hierarchy into that one.

I've mentioned it several times here, at KF, that after receiving my Sandan, I was not allowed to test before tenure of Time In Grade had been reached. Well, I was wrong, dead wrong. While it surely felt as though this was true, it actually wasn't.

So, speaking with the MOD at the Hombu this morning, I had her, Cheryl pull my Hard Card file, and her and I went through the Hard Card file concerning everything, including the Testing Cycle information per Testing Cycle. Please forgive me for stating inaccurate facts; facts found inside of my Hard Card file.

I've submitted every Testing Cycle Petition, but only after I was instructed to do so by Kaicho/Dai-Soke, minus the Kudan. Then after I filled out the Testing Cycle Petition, Kaicho/Dai-Soke would sign his affirmation, therefore, recommending me for said Testing Cycle.

Does anyone here think that 25 years, 1975 to 2000, is WAY to fast, and therefore, not in agreement with the Dan tenure's Time In Grade??

If so, then I can't do anything about it. What's done is done! Kaicho suggested, I filed, he signed, and Soke approved each and everyone of them. No one can be tested without his sole approval...NO ONE!!

Let's look at how it should've been:

1975...Shodan

1976...Nidan

1978...Sandan

1981...Yondan

1985...Godan

1990...Rokudan

1996...Nanadan

2003...Hachidan

That's how it should've looked in a perfect world, and I'm not perfect, not even on the floor!! That's a solid 28 years from Shodan to Hachidan, and that's with NO FAILS!! I've failed my share of testing cycles within the Dan Testing Cycles, 3 times in fact...Yondan...Rokudan...Nanadan.

Yet, looking at my Hard Card file, I've Petitioned the Hombu for Testing Cycles, at the behest of Kaicho, many times before tenure was even close to being obtained. The By-Laws are crystal clear and with no ambiguity whatsoever!! That being said, and to me meager defense, I'm guilty of breaching the By-Laws by Petitioning before tenure reached. Had Kaicho not encouraged me to do so, I wouldn't have until I reached the Dan tenure's minimums.

Soke can do whatever he wants; he's the Soke...the founder of Shindokan Saitou-ryu. He and Kaicho/Dai-Soke wrote the SKKA By-Laws, and then solidified them through an outside Law firm.

I'm befuddled and ashamed across the board!! It would appear that I only fought hard to obey the By-Laws when it came to being pushed into my Kudan. Otherwise, I hardly put up a fight to do what was required, and not before.

What do you ALL think? Please be candid and frank!!

My options seem clear to me, as to what I must and should do, but, for now, I'll suspend that until I hear opinions.

[The Pred]

You're welcome!!

I was sitting here re-reading my previous post, and I realized something. In my 50 years in Shindokan, I've only reached full Time In Grade in the Dan grades the following times:

Shodan to Nidan...1 full years

Yondan to Godan...4 full years

Rokudan to Nanadan...7 full years; one year beyond Time In Grade

Hachidan to Kudan...13 full years; however, I won't count this one because I feel that I was forced my the current Hombu's hierarchy into that one.

I've mentioned it several times here, at KF, that after receiving my Sandan, I was not allowed to test before tenure of Time In Grade had been reached. Well, I was wrong, dead wrong. While it surely felt as though this was true, it actually wasn't.

So, speaking with the MOD at the Hombu this morning, I had her, Cheryl pull my Hard Card file, and her and I went through the Hard Card file concerning everything, including the Testing Cycle information per Testing Cycle. Please forgive me for stating inaccurate facts; facts found inside of my Hard Card file.

I've submitted every Testing Cycle Petition, but only after I was instructed to do so by Kaicho/Dai-Soke, minus the Kudan. Then after I filled out the Testing Cycle Petition, Kaicho/Dai-Soke would sign his affirmation, therefore, recommending me for said Testing Cycle.

Does anyone here think that 25 years, 1975 to 2000, is WAY to fast, and therefore, not in agreement with the Dan tenure's Time In Grade??

If so, then I can't do anything about it. What's done is done! Kaicho suggested, I filed, he signed, and Soke approved each and everyone of them. No one can be tested without his sole approval...NO ONE!!

Let's look at how it should've been:

1975...Shodan

1976...Nidan

1978...Sandan

1981...Yondan

1985...Godan

1990...Rokudan

1996...Nanadan

2003...Hachidan

That's how it should've looked in a perfect world, and I'm not perfect, not even on the floor!! That's a solid 28 years from Shodan to Hachidan, and that's with NO FAILS!! I've failed my share of testing cycles within the Dan Testing Cycles, 3 times in fact...Yondan...Rokudan...Nanadan.

Yet, looking at my Hard Card file, I've Petitioned the Hombu for Testing Cycles, at the behest of Kaicho, many times before tenure was even close to being obtained. The By-Laws are crystal clear and with no ambiguity whatsoever!! That being said, and to me meager defense, I'm guilty of breaching the By-Laws by Petitioning before tenure reached. Had Kaicho not encouraged me to do so, I wouldn't have until I reached the Dan tenure's minimums.

Soke can do whatever he wants; he's the Soke...the founder of Shindokan Saitou-ryu. He and Kaicho/Dai-Soke wrote the SKKA By-Laws, and then solidified them through an outside Law firm.

I'm befuddled and ashamed across the board!! It would appear that I only fought hard to obey the By-Laws when it came to being pushed into my Kudan. Otherwise, I hardly put up a fight to do what was required, and not before.

What do you ALL think? Please be candid and frank!!

My options seem clear to me, as to what I must and should do, but, for now, I'll suspend that until I hear opinions.

Don't be to hard on yourself, as you stated before you were a JBB for 5 years so that should count for something. Besides yourself has there ever been people who gotten ranks just as fast as you or were you one of the execeptions.

[The Pred]

Furthermore, how old was your Soke when he founded Shindokan Saitou-Ryu? Isn't it when you find find your own art no matter the age you're automatically a 10th Dan?

[sensei8]

You're welcome!!

I was sitting here re-reading my previous post, and I realized something. In my 50 years in Shindokan, I've only reached full Time In Grade in the Dan grades the following times:

Shodan to Nidan...1 full years

Yondan to Godan...4 full years

Rokudan to Nanadan...7 full years; one year beyond Time In Grade

Hachidan to Kudan...13 full years; however, I won't count this one because I feel that I was forced my the current Hombu's hierarchy into that one.

I've mentioned it several times here, at KF, that after receiving my Sandan, I was not allowed to test before tenure of Time In Grade had been reached. Well, I was wrong, dead wrong. While it surely felt as though this was true, it actually wasn't.

So, speaking with the MOD at the Hombu this morning, I had her, Cheryl pull my Hard Card file, and her and I went through the Hard Card file concerning everything, including the Testing Cycle information per Testing Cycle. Please forgive me for stating inaccurate facts; facts found inside of my Hard Card file.

I've submitted every Testing Cycle Petition, but only after I was instructed to do so by Kaicho/Dai-Soke, minus the Kudan. Then after I filled out the Testing Cycle Petition, Kaicho/Dai-Soke would sign his affirmation, therefore, recommending me for said Testing Cycle.

Does anyone here think that 25 years, 1975 to 2000, is WAY to fast, and therefore, not in agreement with the Dan tenure's Time In Grade??

If so, then I can't do anything about it. What's done is done! Kaicho suggested, I filed, he signed, and Soke approved each and everyone of them. No one can be tested without his sole approval...NO ONE!!

Let's look at how it should've been:

1975...Shodan

1976...Nidan

1978...Sandan

1981...Yondan

1985...Godan

1990...Rokudan

1996...Nanadan

2003...Hachidan

That's how it should've looked in a perfect world, and I'm not perfect, not even on the floor!! That's a solid 28 years from Shodan to Hachidan, and that's with NO FAILS!! I've failed my share of testing cycles within the Dan Testing Cycles, 3 times in fact...Yondan...Rokudan...Nanadan.

Yet, looking at my Hard Card file, I've Petitioned the Hombu for Testing Cycles, at the behest of Kaicho, many times before tenure was even close to being obtained. The By-Laws are crystal clear and with no ambiguity whatsoever!! That being said, and to me meager defense, I'm guilty of breaching the By-Laws by Petitioning before tenure reached. Had Kaicho not encouraged me to do so, I wouldn't have until I reached the Dan tenure's minimums.

Soke can do whatever he wants; he's the Soke...the founder of Shindokan Saitou-ryu. He and Kaicho/Dai-Soke wrote the SKKA By-Laws, and then solidified them through an outside Law firm.

I'm befuddled and ashamed across the board!! It would appear that I only fought hard to obey the By-Laws when it came to being pushed into my Kudan. Otherwise, I hardly put up a fight to do what was required, and not before.

What do you ALL think? Please be candid and frank!!

My options seem clear to me, as to what I must and should do, but, for now, I'll suspend that until I hear opinions.

Don't be to hard on yourself, as you stated before you were a JBB for 5 years so that should count for something. Besides yourself has there ever been people who gotten ranks just as fast as you or were you one of the execeptions.

Thank you for your supportive words.

I don't think I was all that fast in earning ranks up to Hachidan, in retrospect, 25 years for me, instead of the minimum of 28 years. But, I do see what you're saying.

Greg, our Kancho, started 6 months later than I did. At times, he'd be senior to me, even when we were kyu ranked; we kind of went back and forth between us when it came to earning ranks from Soke and Kaicho. I earned my Hachidan in 25 years, and Greg earned his in 29 years. He struggled with Nanadan, having failed that Dan rank twice, and earned a 1 year tenure penalty from Soke for gross insubordination at the end of his 2nd fail for Nanadan. The last one to earn a Hachidan from Kaicho/Dai-Soke took him 31 years from the time he earned his Shodan.

To the bold type above...No!! I say this without equivocation, NO!! This was NOT the way of Soke and Kaicho/Dai-Soke...awarding ANY rank prematurely, that is!! Nor, was I an exception!! I never sat down and asked either of them..."Why?" To do so would be received by either of them as though I was being questioning them across the board; that would be very disrespectful to do so: Questioning a Testing Cycle decision?!?! No thank you, I'll pass on that!!

Over 50 years, I've noticed things relating to what we're discussing about, concerning my fellow practitioners, but never gave it any marked consideration. Why? I'm a student of Kaicho, and compared to either of them while they were alive, I had the authority of a stick in many Hombu Administrative dealings. I'd just shrug my shoulders and think..."Hey, they must've done well enough to have Soke or Dai-Soke/Kaicho pass them...COOL!! I'm proud of him/her/them!!" Again, questioning Testing Cycle decisions of Senior Dan's is the quickest way to find the door hitting you on your backside on your way out...for good!!

[The Pred]

Was Greg older hence why he ranked senior to you despite starting 6 month later?

[sensei8]

Was Greg older hence why he ranked senior to you despite starting 6 month later?

No...we're the same age; 57 years old. Seniority is based on rank and when said rank was earned.

[sensei8]

Furthermore, how old was your Soke when he founded Shindokan Saitou-Ryu? Isn't it when you find find your own art no matter the age you're automatically a 10th Dan?

Fuyuhiko Saitou was born in 1917. He founded Shindokan Saitou-ryu in 1950; so, Soke was 33 years old.

Yes, I believe you're right about the Judan being an automatic happening when one finds your own art. I didn't know that Soke was a Judan until I was in my 3rd year as a JBB. Soke being a Judan...well...I don't fault him for that because it's none of my business, imho. When, where, how, and why of when Soke earned his Judan, isn't spoke about in our Densho Scrolls and the like in any great details.

While I've been quite hard on myself in our discussions, I'm not that overly concerned with it because the what, when, where, why, how, and who my ranks/titles came about, imho, is out of my hands. Has been out of my hands ever since I joined in 1964; only Soke and Kaicho/Dai-Soke had the authority to do so. Really, what's one to do?!

Edited May 4, 2015 by sensei8