Bassai Dai - Opening Movement

[lowereastside]

I see it as a strike. But then again i see everything as a strike.

[jaypo]

I like that application, and my Kyusho/Hapkido instructor would appreciate that application as well. But I've always been taught that it is a strike, grab, and hip toss. But then again, that's the fun part of examining Kata. It's like a poem open to the reader's interpretation and creativity!

[pers]

Basai dai meaning to storm the castle.

The opening move is exactly that... moving in and intercepting an oncoming attack and blowing them off their feet.

I have seen an experienced girl of small built knock a big bloke off his feet!

I have to clarify myself here , I don't know why I automatically thought the first move was the stepping forward , but yes the first move could be interpreted as a release and then a strike ,that video is a good demonstration of what is possible , what we mainly concentrated on was to intercept an oncoming attack and striking the midsection knocking the opponent off balance , of course the key is in timing it right and catching them just as they launch their attack , it is a good exercise to practice timing .

[Oshishinobu]

OSU!i personally love the idea of a wrist lock application. I have also used it as a advancing movement with a bo thrust. Bassai dai is a fantastic kata and I think is a great empty Han or weapon kata.

OSU!

[Davis]

I think there is much in bassai dai other than the opening movement to comment on.

The general bunkai flow, as taught is

a. break through the circle by attacking with the first move, strike

b. block a series of incoming punches from attackers who now are attacking from behind

c. catch a kick and throw the person off balance

d. get low and strike with lateral body shifting to avoid being knocked to the ground (with multiple attackers the ground is typically where it goes and where you don't want it to be!) People often ask about shiko dachi, or in some styles, horse riding stance, this is the perfect counter to a double leg takedown, for one, going low to stuff a takedown is how I view it) From shiko dachi you are set for the sprawl.

e. deflect attacks by attacking the limb with shuto (funakoshi recounts using shuto to injure an attackers thigh in Karate Do: My Way of Life

f. grab a strike and trap, then palm strike to the chest or neck

g. break attackers knee

h. grabbed and counter the grab with a double kidney punch

The next part of the movement has some fantastic choreography and uses a thrust punch followed by and entry (irimi) to deflect a powerful attack

The last section, the double punches are shown in a great movie, available on youtube called Obi. Probably the best karate movie I have seen. Punching to both the face and midsection at the same time, impossible to defend against (the risk is counter, which leaves you with no defense, so its a rather bold move)...however, in the movie you see its application.

Finally, we trap incoming attacks (Shito Ryu kaga te) and resolve the kata by throwing the opponent and using a backfist to the downed opponent's face, these alternate, showing how to trap, unbalance and finish on the ground without being pulled down and ground fighting. I believe the throw is similar to "To Topple a Folding Screen", shown in Karate Do kyohan.

I see bassai dai as a lower level kata which bridges the gap between the pinans , much like Kushanku Dai. It bridges to Matsumura Ro Hai, Seunchin and other nidan/sandan transitional kata. These in turn, open up higher kata.

At the same time, even Mabuni said, 3 or 4 kata are all you need. If you know a half dozen well that is sufficient. I think bassai dai prepares you for higher kata, but does not expore the subtlety of Seunchin or Saipai.

Cheers

[Oshishinobu]

OSU!

I have always thought a fun bunkai for the sweeping block after the fifth movement as grabbing some dirt and throwing it in the enemies eyes.

OSU!

[LeighSimmsMA]

Sorry but the argument "it won't work because jujutsu" won't fly here. This forum is for discussion so tell us why you think it worn't work and please do so in a professional manner. We aren't out to prove which system is better in this forum. If you want to discuss such things, please go to Comparative Styles and Cross Training here: http://www.karateforums.com/comparative-styles-and-cross-training-vf33.html

To LeighSimmsMA. Taking anything Abernethy teaches is great, and experimenting with it is the whole point of his methods. Making it work in different situations is also creative and fun. I was first taught it was an augmented block that functioned as a strike that pushed an opponent away, giving you more room to use in defending yourself. Since then I've seen many interpretations and many of them are pretty good. Do you have a different angle so we can see how you're grabbing the hand/arm?

I think it is a mistake to assume that just because a movement exists in a kata it has a practical application. It may be an exercise to develop some specific aspect of coordination, certain muscle groups, or it may simply be a mistake (nobody is perfect, this includes those who make and modify kata).

In any case, I think there is little point worrying about applications you cannot consistently and safely test in sparring. One's intuition on the applicability of a technique, no matter how qualified they are, is no replacement for real application. You don't really know a technique is consistently useful until someone has consistently used it, and you won't be able to consistently use it yourself until you've done it for real a few times.

I agree in part with your first statement. Not all movements in kata are directly related to an attack or defence. But part of bunkai is finding one via creative thinking and experimenting given different scenarios. I disagree with your statement about testing & sparring. Not all confrontations occur in the typical sparring scenario. It is a great arena for such testing of course and can't be discounted, but it cannot be the sole method for testing what works.

Just because this technique is the opening part of a kata doesn't necessarily mean the application being presented to you is occurring during a fight. This could be the very first technique in one, or perhaps it is a method for a good samaritan to get someone to stop assaulting someone else.

It is really difficult to explain so I may need to upload some images later today to help. The first technique (salutation) uses one hand to grip the attackers hand with MY fingers touching the inside of HIS palm and MY thumb on the back of HIS hand just underneath one of the two middle knuckles. At the same time MY other hands palm presses into the back of the attackers wrist (slightly off centre -towards the attackers little finger).

In the video my right hand grips and the left hand presses.

In the second technique (first move of the kata) MY left hand changes the direction of the pressure as I begin to press the attackers hand in a 90 degree direction (ie to my right) - this is done is I move forward and then push down at the same time.

Does this help?

Probably not!

[Kusotare]

Sorry but the argument "it won't work because jujutsu" won't fly here. This forum is for discussion so tell us why you think it worn't work and please do so in a professional manner. We aren't out to prove which system is better in this forum.

I wasn't trying to say one system was better than another - I was simply suggesting that trying to make something out of "possibilities" comes with problems.

It is really difficult to explain so I may need to upload some images later today to help. The first technique (salutation) uses one hand to grip the attackers hand with MY fingers touching the inside of HIS palm and MY thumb on the back of HIS hand just underneath one of the two middle knuckles. At the same time MY other hands palm presses into the back of the attackers wrist (slightly off centre -towards the attackers little finger).

In the video my right hand grips and the left hand presses.

In the second technique (first move of the kata) MY left hand changes the direction of the pressure as I begin to press the attackers hand in a 90 degree direction (ie to my right) - this is done is I move forward and then push down at the same time.

I jujutsu terms, I think what Leigh is trying to explain here is a kotegaeshi or wrist turn.

The problem is not the application of the wrist turn, it is about how it is "realised" in this particular phrase of the kata.

In essence what your hands our doing have very little effect in the technique. Its more about your body movement in itself and in relation to your opponent.

If you perform kotegaeshi and cast your opponent backward away from your original starting position, this is generally referred to as an "Irimi Kotegashi" or entering wrist turn"

The rear leg past the front from behind (as Bassai) is not the most effective way to transfer your body mass through this technique.

Rather - it suggests to me that there is a turn involved which would employ a another version of a kotegashi where the opponent is eventually cast behind you.

So, whilst the idea is there (regarding what the hands are doing) the body isn't doing the right thing IMO.

And this is my point. If you want to learn how to do kotegaeshi properly (and not just play at it) go to your local Aikido or Jujutsu club.

K.

[guird]

I agree in part with your first statement. Not all movements in kata are directly related to an attack or defence. But part of bunkai is finding one via creative thinking and experimenting given different scenarios. I disagree with your statement about testing & sparring. Not all confrontations occur in the typical sparring scenario. It is a great arena for such testing of course and can't be discounted, but it cannot be the sole method for testing what works.

Just because this technique is the opening part of a kata doesn't necessarily mean the application being presented to you is occurring during a fight. This could be the very first technique in one, or perhaps it is a method for a good samaritan to get someone to stop assaulting someone else.

It's true that you may find yourself in situations for which sparring does not provide a good analogue. However, unless you frequently find yourself in those situations and don't mind taking the risk of trying out untested techniques, I don't see a good way to figure out which techniques are good for these situations. additionally, without applying them in practice, or at least applying very similar techniques I doubt I'd be able to pull the techniques off even if I did know which ones can be useful.

I know that some martial arts schools will implement different forms of sparring which resemble alternative scenarios, and these provide some idea, and there are a few fight organisations that go beyond the straightforward 1-on-1 situation such as the russian 'hip show' 2-on-2 MMA fights. Not all scenarios can be simulated like this however.

If caught in an unfamiliar situation, I would rather rely on what I know (a punch to the chin is a good way to knock someone down, a sprawl is a good method for avoiding a low tackle) than gamble on untested techniques.

so while sparring isn't an ideal test, I can't think of any other safe ones. If you know of one, I'm all ears.

[guird]

People often ask about shiko dachi, or in some styles, horse riding stance, this is the perfect counter to a double leg takedown, for one, going low to stuff a takedown is how I view it) From shiko dachi you are set for the sprawl.

Why transition to shiko dachi before sprawling? I have no trouble sprawling from a medium height stance, and there usually isn't much time to lose. The shiko dachi I was taught wasn't a particularly nimble position for sprawling.

My wrestling is pretty awful though, so I may be missing something here.