Bassai Dai - Opening Movement

[Mokita]

I've heard of the sword idea, before, but it doesn't fit with my kenjutsu experience, or my interpretation of kata. Granted, my kenjutsu experience was limited to about a year and a half of training, but it also doesn't look like the Jigen-Ryu I've seen, which is the sword style Matsumura supposedly practiced. On top of that, older versions of Passai don't hold the left hand up with the right fist--they hold hold it down by the elbow in meotode-gamae, which is a definitively empty hand fighting method.

As far as the stacked-hands postures in kata, they can certainly look like drawing or sheathing a sword. That said, I don't really see that as something that necessarily adds value to the kata. We already have effective empty handed applications for that posture passed down by various masters. It isn't exactly a mystery. I suppose I see no reason to incorporate a sword technique when I have perfectly good empty hand applications.

True, but it depends on how you want to interpret each kata. Kata's have many levels depending on ability and situation.

This video is perfect on how a kata has parts that are clearly defined for weapons while other parts work better without.

The flow of kata certainly becomes disjointed when embarking down this route, however feudalistic fighting against invaders or occupiers would no doubt have required you to be trained in arms as well as unarmed. The idea that some forms were designed to incorporate both armed and empty hand, I think is a smart thing especially if one is bodyguard to the king.

[bushido_man96]

We already have effective empty handed applications for that posture passed down by various masters. It isn't exactly a mystery. I suppose I see no reason to incorporate a sword technique when I have perfectly good empty hand applications.

I see no reason to employ a sword technique when there is no sword to employ it with. And from what I know of Karate forms, I don't think they were ever performed by the Samurai. To me, it doesn't make sense.

There were weapons, they just weren't openly practiced. The samurai completely over powered the island for centuries. How can you say their fighting techniques would not have influenced the ryukyu? Especially around the time of conception of this kata.

Who is credited with the creation of this kata? Does it have Chinese roots, like many of the others? Was the creator of the kata skilled in the use of the sword? I'm just curious, to see if this helps line up with the idea of the technique.

[Wastelander]

I do think that practicing empty hand kata with weapons can certainly be an interesting and enlightening experience. Indeed, some weapons (tekko, tonfa, sai, etc.) are excellent force multipliers that can be used with the same techniques the kata is teaching empty handed. There are also occasional movements in kata that could possibly be seen as references to the use of a concealed weapon, such as a hairpin or small knife. That said, I've never been sold on the "empty hand kata are secretly weapons kata" idea.

Even after the Japanese Satsuma conquered the Ryukyu islands in the 1600's, they left the Okinawan nobility to continue their role of policing and defending the islands. They also continued managing their trade and envoy ships traveling to and from China (which was the reason Japan largely left them alone), and they had to protect those ships from Wokou (pirates). We know that Okinawan weapons systems, including sword and spear systems, were passed down through Okinawan nobility and military for these purposes. They simply had no reason to hide weapons systems within empty hand kata, at least not beyond a quick "by the way, if you have a hairpin, you can stab them here" movement or two.

[bushido_man96]

I'd agree with your assessment here. I know I've got a book on various Karate kata at home, and I'll look into that and see what information I can find. But I just don't recall a weapon component to it.

[Mokita]

We already have effective empty handed applications for that posture passed down by various masters. It isn't exactly a mystery. I suppose I see no reason to incorporate a sword technique when I have perfectly good empty hand applications.

I see no reason to employ a sword technique when there is no sword to employ it with. And from what I know of Karate forms, I don't think they were ever performed by the Samurai. To me, it doesn't make sense.

There were weapons, they just weren't openly practiced. The samurai completely over powered the island for centuries. How can you say their fighting techniques would not have influenced the ryukyu? Especially around the time of conception of this kata.

Who is credited with the creation of this kata? Does it have Chinese roots, like many of the others? Was the creator of the kata skilled in the use of the sword? I'm just curious, to see if this helps line up with the idea of the technique.

Sokon Matsumura was central in the creation of the kata. His teacher's teacher was Chinese, so no doubt this had an influence in his training. However, as his position as chief bodyguard to the king of Okinawa would have been during the time of Samurai control on the island, sword skills would have been paramount (albeit illegal). Matsumura was noted as skilled in the sword, but most so the Sai and Bo I believe.

Here's a video of Bassai Dai with a katana. Although some occasional weakness of sword interpretation, it shows validity in parts. In no way am I saying the whole kata was created for sword, but I just can't unthink that opening is which makes me now question it.

[Mokita]

I do think that practicing empty hand kata with weapons can certainly be an interesting and enlightening experience. Indeed, some weapons (tekko, tonfa, sai, etc.) are excellent force multipliers that can be used with the same techniques the kata is teaching empty handed. There are also occasional movements in kata that could possibly be seen as references to the use of a concealed weapon, such as a hairpin or small knife. That said, I've never been sold on the "empty hand kata are secretly weapons kata" idea.

Even after the Japanese Satsuma conquered the Ryukyu islands in the 1600's, they left the Okinawan nobility to continue their role of policing and defending the islands. They also continued managing their trade and envoy ships traveling to and from China (which was the reason Japan largely left them alone), and they had to protect those ships from Wokou (pirates). We know that Okinawan weapons systems, including sword and spear systems, were passed down through Okinawan nobility and military for these purposes. They simply had no reason to hide weapons systems within empty hand kata, at least not beyond a quick "by the way, if you have a hairpin, you can stab them here" movement or two.

I pretty much agree with all this to be honest. As Matsumura was chief bodyguard to the king, its hard to know how the nobility trained and was it different to the outsiders that were then taught. Did the nobility/military train with arms but the villagers not. Perhaps training methods were changed for specific reasons. It's interesting as I train JKA and they have now changed the starting cupping hands position from left thumb inside the right fist to now outside which suggest holding something. Again, why do this unless to get back to its roots (samurai).

But back to the original post which is the interpretation of the opening of Bassai Dai. To this day, I'm yet to be fullyconvinced by any wrist grab break or throw in this opening move. I question the practicality in an ancient martial feudalistic scenario. But if we're talking today in a street /police restraint, then sure it would work but if I'm surrounded by 8 men with sticks, knifes, spears then it's not going to happen.

Just to finish off my exhaustive but unfortunately only theoretical point!

Bassai Dai to this day is conversed as 'To penetrate the fortress'. But it actually means to 'extract' and 'block'. This signifies some kind of form that was designed to protect and extract the king and block attack for his safe passage.

OSS!

[Wastelander]

Kata are changed for a great many reasons, but rarely to "get back to its roots," at least not on a large scale. Admittedly, in my system we do have the left hand (and thumb) wrapped around the outside of the right fist at the beginning. That said, other old/older versions of the kata hold the hands more like the "cupped hands" Buddhist meditative posture, and others hold them flat and open with the back of one hand in the palm of the other, like Naihanchi. Neither of those resembles holding a sword.

For what it's worth, Funakoshi coined the Bassai name, and its associated kanji characters, because it sounded like the Okinawan name (Patsai/Passai) and had a poetic meaning. The Okinawans write Patsai/Passai in kana (パッサイ) which have no meanings except to represent sounds. This means that we actually have no idea what the kata was originally for, if we're trying to go by its name. It's certainly possible that the word "Passai" meant something in Uchinaguchi, but even the Okinawans who still speak it don't seem to know what it would have meant. It also could very well have been a name, like Kusanku. Unfortunately, unless someone discovers a lost text written by Sakugawa, we may never know.

Looking at the kata from the perspective of a bodyguard is all well and good for expanding your approach, though.

[Mokita]

Kata are changed for a great many reasons, but rarely to "get back to its roots," at least not on a large scale. Admittedly, in my system we do have the left hand (and thumb) wrapped around the outside of the right fist at the beginning. That said, other old/older versions of the kata hold the hands more like the "cupped hands" Buddhist meditative posture, and others hold them flat and open with the back of one hand in the palm of the other, like Naihanchi. Neither of those resembles holding a sword.

For what it's worth, Funakoshi coined the Bassai name, and its associated kanji characters, because it sounded like the Okinawan name (Patsai/Passai) and had a poetic meaning. The Okinawans write Patsai/Passai in kana (パッサイ) which have no meanings except to represent sounds. This means that we actually have no idea what the kata was originally for, if we're trying to go by its name. It's certainly possible that the word "Passai" meant something in Uchinaguchi, but even the Okinawans who still speak it don't seem to know what it would have meant. It also could very well have been a name, like Kusanku. Unfortunately, unless someone discovers a lost text written by Sakugawa, we may never know.

Looking at the kata from the perspective of a bodyguard is all well and good for expanding your approach, though.

Excellent explanation. Much to think about here.

May I recommend a great read called shotokan's secret by Bruce Clayton. Although sourcing shotokan's routes, the book is mainly about it's origins and pre lineage with some interesting theories, if you like a little adventure. Some serious oyo/bunkai too.

[bushido_man96]

From what I've read, it sounds like the roots of this kata are relatively unknown. It does seem to be tied to him, but whether he created it or not isn't necessarily proven?

[Wastelander]

From what I've read, it sounds like the roots of this kata are relatively unknown. It does seem to be tied to him, but whether he created it or not isn't necessarily proven?

For the most part, no one knows who created the older kata. Even some of the newer kata are in question. There has long been a legend that "Bushi" Matsumura created Passai, supposedly to record techniques for guarding the king. This cannot be true, however, because "Bushi" Tachimura was also a student of "Tode" Sakugawa, and said that he learned Passai from his teacher, along with Naihanchi and Kusanku. At this point, all we can say is that those three kata were taught, together, as far back as that. Before that, we don't know.

Excellent explanation. Much to think about here.

May I recommend a great read called shotokan's secret by Bruce Clayton. Although sourcing shotokan's routes, the book is mainly about it's origins and pre lineage with some interesting theories, if you like a little adventure. Some serious oyo/bunkai too.

I am familiar with Mr. Clayton's work, although I haven't read it, myself. Those I know who have read it found it to be interesting, but said that he bases his theories on legends rather than documented facts and historical evidence. I would have to read it to make my own judgement, of course.