Bassai Dai - Opening Movement

[LeighSimmsMA]

Hi Guys,

There was a discussion in an other thread that noted that the opening of Bassai Dai is an awkward and bizzare move that is not seen in Hand-toHand Fighting, MMA or any other applied fighting.

Without wanting to de-rail that thread, I thought this could be a good place to discuss the opening of Bassai Dai and what potential practical applications could be found from it.

In my opinion, I do not see it as not being seen in Hand-to-Hand or other applied fighting. I see the motion as a wrist lock and takedown. The reason we don't see this in MMA is that I believe small joint locks are banned.

I have posted a quick video of the movement and a description of the technique below. The room was a bit "sweaty" and was not planned, so we apologise for our lack of gi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFVn2AAJQp4&feature=youtu.be

The first technique seen in the video is a basic wrist-lock/snap for the opening salutation.

The second technique looks at the first motion of the kata. As noted earlier, this can be drilled in connection with the first technique or own its own as a defence against any kind of straight arm attack.

The projecting forward and down assist with taking the attacker off-balance. The cross-footed stance is used to move as much of the defenders bodyweight forward as possible when performing the takedown.

The right hand is closed in the kata which represents the grip of the attackers hand. The left hand is open - representing pressing and twisting the attackers wrist. Both hands start to the side and swing across as per the kata - in order take the attacker down.

(PS - As the video states the idea of this was not mine, it was from a Seminar with Iain Abernethy - I know Iain has a video online of Bassai but he covers this motion very quickly as part of a longer sequence, hence why I have recorded the movement myself - also it is my interpretation of the drill I was shown many years ago and may well be doing differently then Iain had originally intended.)

I would love to know how others view this move and think it would be a good place to share our knowledge

[sensei8]

Nice topic, and nice video; thank you for sharing!!

Interpretations!! Oyo!!

Yours, imho, is good. Direct and simple! You speak towards your own interpretation, and this is good; Oyo birth creations.

On the floor, we're all taught numerous possibilities, and therefore, we're required to execute them as taught by the CI/Governing Body. These possibilities are received by myself as effective means to an assumed situation(s).

I'm fine with that!!

Imho, without Oyo, Bunkai dies as quickly as it's born; limited to someone else's interpretations!! I respect what was before; laid out the foundations. I also respect what is now; supporting yesterdays. I also respect what is to come; change is inevitable.

Interpretations are fine, but, imho, they too can be limited by a wide scope of knowledge and experience per the practitioner. If we follow what was before blindly, then the interpretation isn't ours, but of the Masters alone.

By seeking out our own understandings, are we questioning those Masters/Founders? If so, then so be it; MA journeys are meant to be shared but they are for the practitioner alone. And, if not, then we become those robots programmed to not think for ourselves beyond what they've created.

The opening segments of Bassai Dai, the one showed in your video, demonstrates an effective application, but in such a way that Oyo is begging to be asked...What else? Is that enough? The crossed legs might, through interpretation again, offer a means to protect ones groin. They might also set up a lead kick.

It's not meant to offer an atonement for what we've all be taught through our styles introductions of Bunkai/Oyo, in which Shu Ha Ri allows us to explore beyond that which hasn't been discovered for oneself, even though, it has been presented to us by the Masters, and for that, I'm forever grateful.

Thinking out loud, again, sorry!!

[Kusotare]

Hi Guys,

There was a discussion in an other thread that noted that the opening of Bassai Dai is an awkward and bizzare move that is not seen in Hand-toHand Fighting, MMA or any other applied fighting.

Without wanting to de-rail that thread, I thought this could be a good place to discuss the opening of Bassai Dai and what potential practical applications could be found from it.

In my opinion, I do not see it as not being seen in Hand-to-Hand or other applied fighting. I see the motion as a wrist lock and takedown. The reason we don't see this in MMA is that I believe small joint locks are banned.

I have posted a quick video of the movement and a description of the technique below. The room was a bit "sweaty" and was not planned, so we apologise for our lack of gi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFVn2AAJQp4&feature=youtu.be

The first technique seen in the video is a basic wrist-lock/snap for the opening salutation.

The second technique looks at the first motion of the kata. As noted earlier, this can be drilled in connection with the first technique or own its own as a defence against any kind of straight arm attack.

The projecting forward and down assist with taking the attacker off-balance. The cross-footed stance is used to move as much of the defenders bodyweight forward as possible when performing the takedown.

The right hand is closed in the kata which represents the grip of the attackers hand. The left hand is open - representing pressing and twisting the attackers wrist. Both hands start to the side and swing across as per the kata - in order take the attacker down.

(PS - As the video states the idea of this was not mine, it was from a Seminar with Iain Abernethy - I know Iain has a video online of Bassai but he covers this motion very quickly as part of a longer sequence, hence why I have recorded the movement myself - also it is my interpretation of the drill I was shown many years ago and may well be doing differently then Iain had originally intended.)

I would love to know how others view this move and think it would be a good place to share our knowledge

I'm I bit of weird breed - as I am both Karate-ka and Jujutsu-ka.

I'm sorry but imho - that would not work in either.

I have a problem with folk trying "reverse engineer" jujutsu techniques into karate kata.

I have trained for 3 hours today with some hard core jujutsu-ka and that technique would have left them laughing...

Sorry.

K.

[wildbourgman]

Kusotare, I've not made an opinion about whether this bunkai would be effective in the manner that it was shown on the clip but I don't think anyone of late is reverse engineering jujutsu techniques into karate kata.

What they are doing is finally finding the movements that are similar or even the same as jujutsu that were dropped from many Japanese and some Okinawan karate styles in order to focus on sport.

Joint manipulation and throws were a very important part of Karate and IMHO the Okinawan karate styles and some Japanese styles are refocusing on this.

The change in focus is probably due to the success of jujutsu and especially BJJ , I have no problem with that. For example I know a few Shotokan instructors that are admittedly having problems competing with other styles of martial arts for students. I for one hope that Karate can meet the needs of future and current students by rediscovering the part of the system that was cast aside rather than "reverse engineering jujutsu".

[Davis]

This is a tough topic, but in my instruction, it was seen as an attack, striking. If you train this movement against the Muay Tai bag or another heavy bag, you will really drive the bag back and cause it to swing. It hits hard! The image I always had was being surrounded at the outset of Bassai Dai, by 8 opponents. The aim of the first move was to break out of the circle.

As far as the comment on wrist throws, etc...we always need to remember that the setup for a wrist throw or something similar is always a strike. We hit hard, to the nose or throat, something stunning and disabling, then we use the wrist lock and attack. I would never coach a student to do a pure ju jutsu move without first hitting the opponent.

[guird]

I think it is a mistake to assume that just because a movement exists in a kata it has a practical application. It may be an exercise to develop some specific aspect of coordination, certain muscle groups, or it may simply be a mistake (nobody is perfect, this includes those who make and modify kata).

In any case, I think there is little point worrying about applications you cannot consistently and safely test in sparring. One's intuition on the applicability of a technique, no matter how qualified they are, is no replacement for real application. You don't really know a technique is consistently useful until someone has consistently used it, and you won't be able to consistently use it yourself until you've done it for real a few times.

[LeighSimmsMA]

As far as the comment on wrist throws, etc...we always need to remember that the setup for a wrist throw or something similar is always a strike. We hit hard, to the nose or throat, something stunning and disabling, then we use the wrist lock and attack. I would never coach a student to do a pure ju jutsu move without first hitting the opponent.

I agree. Trying to throw a resisting opponent is very difficult.

[pers]

Basai dai meaning to storm the castle.

The opening move is exactly that... moving in and intercepting an oncoming attack and blowing them off their feet.

I have seen an experienced girl of small built knock a big bloke off his feet!

[cathal]

Sorry but the argument "it won't work because jujutsu" won't fly here. This forum is for discussion so tell us why you think it worn't work and please do so in a professional manner. We aren't out to prove which system is better in this forum. If you want to discuss such things, please go to Comparative Styles and Cross Training here: http://www.karateforums.com/comparative-styles-and-cross-training-vf33.html

To LeighSimmsMA. Taking anything Abernethy teaches is great, and experimenting with it is the whole point of his methods. Making it work in different situations is also creative and fun. I was first taught it was an augmented block that functioned as a strike that pushed an opponent away, giving you more room to use in defending yourself. Since then I've seen many interpretations and many of them are pretty good. Do you have a different angle so we can see how you're grabbing the hand/arm?

I think it is a mistake to assume that just because a movement exists in a kata it has a practical application. It may be an exercise to develop some specific aspect of coordination, certain muscle groups, or it may simply be a mistake (nobody is perfect, this includes those who make and modify kata).

In any case, I think there is little point worrying about applications you cannot consistently and safely test in sparring. One's intuition on the applicability of a technique, no matter how qualified they are, is no replacement for real application. You don't really know a technique is consistently useful until someone has consistently used it, and you won't be able to consistently use it yourself until you've done it for real a few times.

I agree in part with your first statement. Not all movements in kata are directly related to an attack or defence. But part of bunkai is finding one via creative thinking and experimenting given different scenarios. I disagree with your statement about testing & sparring. Not all confrontations occur in the typical sparring scenario. It is a great arena for such testing of course and can't be discounted, but it cannot be the sole method for testing what works.

Just because this technique is the opening part of a kata doesn't necessarily mean the application being presented to you is occurring during a fight. This could be the very first technique in one, or perhaps it is a method for a good samaritan to get someone to stop assaulting someone else.

[Wastelander]

Thanks for sharing, Leigh. I've seen this application from a few people, including Iain, so I'm familiar with the idea. I do want to point out that this technique would actually be legal in MMA competition, as the wrist is not considered a "small joint"--that rules only covers fingers and toes. The real trick is that gloves and wraps make wrist locks pretty much impossible!

Personally, I don't like to use this lock as an application for the opening of Passai, because the mechanics don't feel right to me. I do use it in other kata, but not here. There are two applications I generally prefer, and they are both a little more Ti-inspired than that. Of course, my Passai Dai is not the same as your Bassai Dai--my Passai Sho would actually be closer.