Bunkai = Knowing How to Move?

[LeighSimmsMA]

Getting back to bassai dai. The opening move really makes little sense. Its an awkward and bizarre way to fight. We never see this in hand to hand combatives, MMA or any other applied fighting.

In relation to Bassai Dai opening movements, I think that is best discussed in a new thread. I find the motion also bizarre but have posted about this here: http://www.karateforums.com/post523407.html#523407 - as I do not wish to de-rail this thread.

I think we have come to a somewhat of a conclusion here.

Davis, firstly I have no issue (nor should anyone) with how you view karate and what you purpose(s) you find with practicing/studying kata.

I do not think that my view of kata is the same as the founders of the styles. I do believe that they intended practical application, no doubt about it. What I am saying is we can take the kata and develop movement.

After reading this, I think we actually agree on the historical basis/purpose of kata (at least to the extent the past masters understood them from). I think where we disagree is that you believe that the kata also have some form of original development of the internal too. Is that correct?

In all I have found this thread very interesting and enjoyable to learn the ways others view Karate, Kata and Bunkai

[Davis]

I agree, this discussion has been interesting. Yes, I can see that where things diverge is this idea of internals. And I do not know enough karate history to comment on whether the internals were part of the original kata. What I am saying is that I believe that I stumbled upon them, training alone and then being strongly influenced by my teacher's transition to aikido. Even within aikido, he is an outlier, although he is now a 6th Dan, the approach to aikido in Canada can be somewhat "mechanical" and sometimes "bunkai", yeh, there are a lot of "practical fighting" aikidoka about.

My thoughts are that freedom of movement makes self defense effective because we are never static, that we genuinely respond to the opponent. I pray I will never have to test it in the real world in a life and death situation. But my sense is that free movement would serve me far better than assigned movements. Very different from Krav Maga or fighting karate and a world apart from tournament fighting.

Thanks for the lively input, I enjoyed this as well. Onto the next thread! What is the meaning of bassai dai?

[DaveB]

Learning to move is an important part of kata, but it is just one component of what one is supposed to learn from kata study.

The sequences of techniques teach skills in terms of specific moves such as locks throws and more specialised strikes. But as I've said many times before the real useful part that let's you go from dead kata to live fight, is the strategy and tactics that each kata sequence teaches.

It's like looking at a

morality tale: the story of the prodigal son is a straightforward story of a dumb kid wasting his money and coming home with his tail between his legs. But looking deeper it has several key ideas about how to treat others that we are meant to take into everyday life, not just the precise circumstances laid out in the story.

Kata is the same. A big forearm block, into a throw with no intervening strike is telling us that in certain circumstances it is advantageous to go straight into the opponent and use his attack's momentum to maximise the throw.

What we have to do is work out (if our teacher can't explain it) what that situation is and how to recognise it early enough to take advantage. Training a variety of throw variations builds skill and helps us learn more about the mechanical aspects of throw entry. Finally practicing a variety of entry's and throws against a variety of attacks in progressively more free form drills will cement the fact that the tactic of entering and using the opponents force is what you apply not the specific movements of the form.

Understanding from the kata as a whole when and why to use the above is the called the strategy and this is the truly key lesson a kata can give us that shows us how to win fights.

To continue the parable analogy, if you have enough Bible stories you can work out what Christianity is all about. So too if you have enough kata sequences you can work out how the kata recommends winning fights and apply that to all situations.

[Montana]

Well, here's my $.02 worth.

Bunkai refers to what the movements in not just kata, but in every movement you learn in a martial art, can be interupted as. Each and every move in a kata can have many, many different meanings.

For example..what is a low block? Is it really just a block? Maybe it's a low strike? Or maybe even a throw? Now, take each of these things (block, strike and throw) and you can delve into what different types of strikes it might be used as, or different things it could be blocking, or how many throws can be done with that movement?

You are only limited by your experience, imagination and training.

[sensei8]

Well, here's my $.02 worth.

Bunkai refers to what the movements in not just kata, but in every movement you learn in a martial art, can be interupted as. Each and every move in a kata can have many, many different meanings.

For example..what is a low block? Is it really just a block? Maybe it's a low strike? Or maybe even a throw? Now, take each of these things (block, strike and throw) and you can delve into what different types of strikes it might be used as, or different things it could be blocking, or how many throws can be done with that movement?

You are only limited by your experience, imagination and training.

Solid post!!

[DaveB]

Unlimited application is usually an excuse for training no applications consistently.

When looking at kata we only see techniques we already know so really there is limited value in stringing together endless variations. What it does give is a continuous avenue of skill development for more experienced players. We don't need kata to do that though, just a library of techniques. Also doing so gives no explanation for the specific sequences that were preserved in the forms.

If we avoid either compromising the form or assuming starting positions or circumstances not supported by the preceding movements, we can quite quickly come to a set of relatively simple effective pragmatic applications for the kata movements. The most controversial method to get to this is to use blocks and strikes as blocks and strikes except where the sequences don't make sense in that way.

Once you have one or two "primary" applications you have all the tools you need start hunting for the strategy built into the form. Supplement with a "feel" for the kata: the flow of momentum and power that comes from a flowing natural performance of the form (moving as if you're fighting). Your strategy will stem from and incorporate this flow.