Bunkai = Knowing How to Move?

[LeighSimmsMA]

Hi Davis,

Can you give me any evidence that bunkai is about knowing how to move?

I also object to the idea of Bunkai. Bunkai is knowing how to move, its not "what to do if the opponent does X".

[Davis]

Regarding knowing how to move....there is no time in a real confrontation to think, or practice rehearsed moves. You either react well or react poorly. Real confrontations are messy, attacks come in obtuse angles, one is often off guard or surrounded by objects or people...

The idea of Bunkai is inflated, that if dude X does Y, you do Z. Its more like it happens and at the end of it there is an outcome.

This is why kata became prevalent. There is no thinking or rehearsal that will help in a real confrontation. It all happens fast!

This is different from restraint, where your job is to bounce, or run in store security from shoplifters. That is restraint and follows more of a plan, but that even falls apart in reality.

Knowing how to move the body is all you have. Hope this helps clarify.

[Zaine]

This is why kata became prevalent. There is no thinking or rehearsal that will help in a real confrontation. It all happens fast!

I disagree. When it comes to the defense of your life, it is precisely the rehearsal (via kata, kumite, etc) that we use to defend ourselves. We practice a certain block against a certain technique so much because when that technique gets used against us, our bodies know what to do. This is the "rehearsal" you reference. We "rehearse" so that we can act immediately, without having to go through a database of knowledge to figure out how to defend. An actual fight does happen very fast, and its the practice and drilling that helps us use the time we have for defense more effectively.

This is also why we focus on bunkai. This move can be translated into a defense against that. Then, we take that and drill it so that it becomes a part of us and then move on to the next technique. So yes, the difference between a martial artist and a non-martial artist is that we know how to move our bodies for defense, but there is so much more to that than you suggest. We know how to move our bodies if someone punches us, or kicks us, or throws any technique at all because we incessantly drill those movements via kata and other practices.

[LeighSimmsMA]

Regarding knowing how to move....there is no time in a real confrontation to think, or practice rehearsed moves. You either react well or react poorly. Real confrontations are messy, attacks come in obtuse angles, one is often off guard or surrounded by objects or people...

The idea of Bunkai is inflated, that if dude X does Y, you do Z. Its more like it happens and at the end of it there is an outcome.

This is why kata became prevalent. There is no thinking or rehearsal that will help in a real confrontation. It all happens fast!

This is different from restraint, where your job is to bounce, or run in store security from shoplifters. That is restraint and follows more of a plan, but that even falls apart in reality.

Knowing how to move the body is all you have. Hope this helps clarify.

I don't agree with this on many levels. I think our view on what bunkai is maybe different. The idea of Bunkai, at least to me, is that it teaches realistic combative fighting principles by way of realistic combative techniques.

For example, the gedan barai (low block) in Tekki Shodan/Naihanchi is clearly explained to be an arm bar by Gichin Funakoshi. Whilst it is important to develop skill with that technique in static and then live training, you must also develop the principles relating to that technique too. Especially when training in live-based sparring as you might not be able to perform the technique exactly, however you can still use the principles learned from them.

I cannot see how practicing just the solo kata gives you the skill (of timing and distance) to move your body effectively in a real confrontation. And even if it did, then why do kata have arm movements? If the kata shows an age uke or a gyaku zuki or a manji uke, why does it matter? why are there hand motions in the kata at al if all the kata are about is moving the body?

[Davis]

There are many points of view on this subject. First, when I say move the body, I don't mean the torso, I mean the whole body including arms and legs and whatever. Kata teaches us movements.

Second, rehearsing for real fighting is to me, the opposite of what karate teaches. Karate, to me, teaches self discipline, mindfulness, respect for others and a way of fitness. It is not for fighting. The more time you spend focusing on self defense, the worse the kata becomes, the worse the karate becomes. Karate is about cultivating love for all living beings. The self defense is icing on the cake. If karate is for self defense, as I thought 35 years ago when I first started training, then most of what it really gives is lost.

I spent many years doing bunkai. I eventually outgrew it. Its a necessary step, but only a step along the way. If it becomes the goal, the teacher has made a great error. This is how I see it. But is it a necessary step? And does it help make your karate better in its rightful place? Absolutely. Should it be the goal of most kata? No. But is it a requirement along the way? Yes.

I think we need to become comfortable with paradox in karate.

[LeighSimmsMA]

Firstly, I Think that this thread (although maybe it needs a new topic for this) has opened lots to discuss and Davis last post brings up some interesting questions! .

Karate, to me, teaches self discipline, mindfulness, respect for others and a way of fitness. It is not for fighting.

I think this a fair view on the subject and your karate is yours. Where we disagree is what kata teach. I see clear a logical approach of recording fighting techniques in a solo form that can be practiced when there is no partner to train with. The evidence is overwhelming for this. Funakoshi in Karate-Do Kyohan demonstrates a number of throws and then writes that these can be found in some of the basic kata. This is just one of many examples I can point too in which kata movements are shown to be practical fighting techniques.

What I see no evidence of is that all kata teaches is movements.

I am also interested to see why the movements of each kata are chosen above other movements. When looking at kata as recording fighting techniques, all the data adds up. There is a reason for the stance used, the hand motions and positions etc...

I would like to see, from your view of teaching motions, why the movements of the kata are the way they are and not any other way.

[Patrick]

This discussion was split off from the Which Kata Best Demonstrate the Core of your Practiced style thread, so the topic could live on its own, allowing people to talk about it at length without distracting from the other thread (and vice versa).

Thanks,

Patrick

[pers]

kata to me is a set of techniques and movements within a concept of a particular situation , each kata has a different approach and tackles different situations .

when I do kata I treat it like a scene of a fight in a movie and I pretend to be the hero fighting multiple adversaries and beating them all !

kata is not on its own the whole answer but part of a healthy training in karate ,or as they say one of the three ,kihon ,kata ,and kumite ...all complimenting one another .

I disagree with Davies on the role of kata and what it does for you .

there is no time to think in a real fight or in competition kumite , but if you have practiced karate or any other martial arts effectively and put in the hard work of training then it should become like second nature and one should be able to do it automaticaaly like second nature .

just like and experienced driver or any other skill you acquire and do it subconsciously .

[Wastelander]

I will say that, technically, the word "bunkai" means "to separate and analyze." It is more commonly used to mean "kata applications," which isn't accurate, but hey, we aren't native Japanese speakers, right? From what I understand, if you ask most old Okinawan masters for kata bunkai, they will ask which section of which kata, and then break down exactly how and when every muscle and joint moves in that sequence. If you're looking at bunkai in that fashion, then "how to move" is EXACTLY what it is teaching.

If we're looking at bunkai from the Western perspective of being kata applications, it does seem that people often get caught up focusing on what the opponent is doing, which can be a bit of a hindrance. The concepts being applied by both parties are more important than the specific techniques being used by either party. In that regard, bunkai can teach you "how to move," I suppose, but "how to move," in this case, should still be within the context of self defense and fighting.

[lowereastside]

Davis say's "The idea of Bunkai is inflated, that if dude X does Y, you do Z. Its more like it happens and at the end of it there is an outcome." Davis in IMHO - Solid Posts - you brought up very good points in your posts. In my opinion everything is of value even the pre-arranged Bunkai's - but there comes a point that you have to move on from the pre-arranged stuff. A few years ago I started teaching some Karate people. These were 7th Dan's in a traditional style of Okinawan Karate - by no means beginners. These new students had big problems in dealing with my senior students. In IMO the Bunkai that they practiced over and over again - created many bad habits. Dropping the hands or bringing the hands back to the waist - and believe me I've heard so many explaination of why the hands are dropped or come back to the waist that I've lost count. This is just one example. And to reinforce what Davis says. A real fight is vicious - fast - .......There is no time to think - set up the opponent or whatever. You have to attack the attack. Look some individuals are fighters it does not matter what Martial Art they study - they can just plain fight. Just my 3 cents. And like a good friend use to say " Why listen to me I make no sense".