Motobu Choki

[Wastelander]

I think that most proponents of practical karate are familiar with Motobu Choki, but for those who are not, he was born in 1870 as the third son of a branch of the Okinawan royal family. Being the third son, he was not taught his family's system of udundi (palace hand), although he spied on his father and oldest brother's training, and picked up some material from his brother. His noble birth did come with connections, however, and he was able to train with several Okinawan masters of karate, although he frustrated several of them with his tendency to go to the docks and get into fights to test his karate.

One of the masters he trained with was Matsumora Kosaku, which has led many people to say that Motobu's karate was actually Tumaidi (Tomari-te). Recently, the Motobu-Ryu organization on Okinawa published an article on this topic, and Okinawan martial arts researcher, Andreas Quast, just published an English translation of that article. I thought some here might find it interesting.

http://ryukyu-bugei.com/?p=4123

[Wasp]

Thanks for sharing, looks very interesting!

[sensei8]

Thanks for sharing, looks very interesting!

Yes, thanks, Noah; and it was very interesting.

[cathal]

This looks interesting can't wait to finish it

[DaveB]

One of the most interesting points raised is towards the end of the article where it is suggested that by the standards of old karate, Itosu Anko, the guy credited with founding all of Shorin ryu, was a bit crap.

This echoes Motobu, who says that Itosu was so bad that Matsumura stopped teaching him. What is interesting is that this article quotes a separate source for this idea that Itosu sucked and goes further in saying that the karate that followed him was full of holes.

[JR 137]

One of the most interesting points raised is towards the end of the article where it is suggested that by the standards of old karate, Itosu Anko, the guy credited with founding all of Shorin ryu, was a bit crap.

This echoes Motobu, who says that Itosu was so bad that Matsumura stopped teaching him. What is interesting is that this article quotes a separate source for this idea that Itosu sucked and goes further in saying that the karate that followed him was full of holes.

A while back, I read somewhere that one of Funakoshi's original students said Finakoshi wasn't very good, from a physical stand point. But you don't have to be the best practitioner to be a great teacher IMO. Phil Jackson and Pat Riley weren't exactly elite NBA players. Look how their coaching careers turned out.

I haven't heard Itosu or Funakoshi weren't good teachers before. I can't confirm or deny this, as both died before I was born. Their influence and students' abilities have however proven to me that they weren't crap.

[Lupin1]

Thanks! He's one of the three main teachers of the founder of Isshinryu, and so I'll have to give a small presentation about him during my black belt test. This should help a lot!

[CredoTe]

Great article, great share

I saw this article just the other day, but hadn't had time to fully ingest it.

After seeing it shared here by you, I had to read it all and munge all the intriguing factoids...

This article addresses many of the questions that keep popping into my head as I conduct my own research on Motobu, especially regarding Choki's MA lineage. It was seem that the "Shuri-te" and "Tomari-te" instruction (from Sokon Matsumura and Kosaku Matsumora) converged a bit through both Motobu and Kyan. And, the question regarding style differences, with style really just a reflection of traditions of its locale, is even more intriguing considering the similarities between "Kobayashi" Shorin-ryu and "Shobayashi" Shorin-ryu.

Which brings up another interesting example in that Chosin Chibana isn't mentioned but was a close friend and practitioner with Kyan. I wonder if all three masters (Motobu, Chibana, Kyan) were just really great students of Te/Ti that absorbed whatever training from whatever Okinawan villages...

[Wastelander]

Great article, great share

I saw this article just the other day, but hadn't had time to fully ingest it.

After seeing it shared here by you, I had to read it all and munge all the intriguing factoids...

This article addresses many of the questions that keep popping into my head as I conduct my own research on Motobu, especially regarding Choki's MA lineage. It was seem that the "Shuri-te" and "Tomari-te" instruction (from Sokon Matsumura and Kosaku Matsumora) converged a bit through both Motobu and Kyan. And, the question regarding style differences, with style really just a reflection of traditions of its locale, is even more intriguing considering the similarities between "Kobayashi" Shorin-ryu and "Shobayashi" Shorin-ryu.

Which brings up another interesting example in that Chosin Chibana isn't mentioned but was a close friend and practitioner with Kyan. I wonder if all three masters (Motobu, Chibana, Kyan) were just really great students of Te/Ti that absorbed whatever training from whatever Okinawan villages...

Thanks! I'm glad I could share something insightful!

Interesting thoughts on Chibana. He most certainly picked up knowledge from his contemporaries, but he clearly had a great deal of respect for his primary teacher (Itosu), since he insisted on only teaching his kata, with the exception of Tawada Passai. Even then, he was specifically told to teach it by Itosu. I'm sure Chibana knew more than he taught, which is actually sad, when you think about it--who knows what was lost when he passed!? Indeed, he didn't teach any kobudo, but when asked, he could demonstrate saijutsu and bojutsu. To be fair, though, those largely use the same concepts as Ti .

[CredoTe]

Great article, great share

I saw this article just the other day, but hadn't had time to fully ingest it.

After seeing it shared here by you, I had to read it all and munge all the intriguing factoids...

This article addresses many of the questions that keep popping into my head as I conduct my own research on Motobu, especially regarding Choki's MA lineage. It was seem that the "Shuri-te" and "Tomari-te" instruction (from Sokon Matsumura and Kosaku Matsumora) converged a bit through both Motobu and Kyan. And, the question regarding style differences, with style really just a reflection of traditions of its locale, is even more intriguing considering the similarities between "Kobayashi" Shorin-ryu and "Shobayashi" Shorin-ryu.

Which brings up another interesting example in that Chosin Chibana isn't mentioned but was a close friend and practitioner with Kyan. I wonder if all three masters (Motobu, Chibana, Kyan) were just really great students of Te/Ti that absorbed whatever training from whatever Okinawan villages...

Thanks! I'm glad I could share something insightful!

Interesting thoughts on Chibana. He most certainly picked up knowledge from his contemporaries, but he clearly had a great deal of respect for his primary teacher (Itosu), since he insisted on only teaching his kata, with the exception of Tawada Passai. Even then, he was specifically told to teach it by Itosu. I'm sure Chibana knew more than he taught, which is actually sad, when you think about it--who knows what was lost when he passed!? Indeed, he didn't teach any kobudo, but when asked, he could demonstrate saijutsu and bojutsu. To be fair, though, those largely use the same concepts as Ti .

Part of the reason I mentioned Chibana, besides him being a companion with Kyan, is that I see strong similarities between the Tote/Ti of Motobu, Kyan, and Chibana. Yes, there are plenty of differences, but the similarities are striking... I say this because the Ti/kobudo I am training in has its roots in Chibana-ha lineage.

A man named Yabiku Moden was a contemporary student with Chibana under Itosu. Yabiku was something of a kobudo legend at the time. One of Yabiku's students was Taira Shinken.

Taira wanted to carry on the kobudo of Yabiku and further develop it with traditional/native Ryukyu influence. He wanted to infuse it with Ti. However, he was too old at that time to fulfill this work. He besought his friend, Higa Yuchoku, to teach his student, Akamine Eisuke, Ti.

Higa Yuchoku was one of Chibana's foremost students, and trained Akamine in Ti to help him infuse Ti into the kobudo. Also, the style of Ti I train in is based on Onaga's teachings; Onaga was a prominent student of Higa Yuchoku, as well.

It's defintely an interesting and challenging venture combining my Ti/kobudo training with my Matsubayashi-Ryu. I find it exhilarating...