When to speak up

[ShoriKid]

Must of us were brought up to say nothing if we didn't have something good to say. As a martial artist I was taught not to denigrate other systems. However, I may have reached my limit lately.

We have an MMA gym in our small town that has been operation for just over a year. I've trained with them, and other students of ours have too. Polite people. There is a lot of conditioning, not a lot of skill training. Now they are putting people in amateur fights.

I am friends with a pretty solid martial artist that in a conversation the other day said he had been training more than 20 years, and earned a 5th dan in 3 (may have been 5, long conversation), Japanese JJ styles and his purple in BJJ. Outside of boxing as a teen, I know he's trained less than 15 years, closer to 10. I knew his first instructor, when he tested for shodan etc.

So, at what point do you speak up about things? I've began giving a very guarded opinion on the MMA gym when asked by people I know. The other case, I've not crossed into yet. He's a long time friend, family with family. We all are appalled at the quality of martial training and decry bad instruction passing off goods to the uniformed. Eyes roll and people get upset over unearned rank. But, what do you do about it? I know many will say, keep training, keep teaching and quality will win out. Where do we draw the line though, say something?

[Davis]

I wouldn't say anything. Let them have their moment of glory. Just smile and listen. Even a fool has something to teach.

HtH

[Spartacus Maximus]

The majority of people will likely only listen to what they want to hear. For this reason the best thing to do is probably to remain silent or only make very general comments.

Before saying anything one should consider what one has to gain or lose by doing so. If the answer to that is nothing of value, then there is no reason to speak. Regardless of how and what other schools teach their students, it has no bearing on what I do.

I may offer my opinion if it is genuinely solicitated, and will listen to that of my sensei. But no mater what I think it is not my place or my business to try to convince anyone of anything.

[yamesu]

Leave it be. No point in creating animosity unnecessarily.

[Wastelander]

I'm a bit confused as to the connection between the MMA gym you mention and the person you describe. Does this person own the MMA gym? Do they teach there? Or are these two completely separate issues?

Personally, I would at least tell your friend that you know they are exaggerating their experience, and that they should not be doing so. That gives them an opportunity to correct their course and save face. Claiming to have double your actual years of experience, and three to five 5th dan ranks in arts that don't give them away like candy, is a recipe for disaster, and privately calling them out can potentially save them from that.

Now, if this person is teaching, and they don't make a change based on your private conversation, then something more drastic may need to be done. Hopefully, your friend will see reason.

As for the MMA gym putting people into amateur fights without much skill training, I would say that isn't terribly uncommon. From what I understand, it's pretty standard for MMA gyms to line up amateur fights for people with about 6-9 months of training, with 1-3 hours a week of skills training during that time, and the rest being strength and conditioning. Since promoters will generally match up amateurs with similar amounts of training and experience, these people will probably be fighting someone with about as much skill as they have. It's certainly not my preferred approach, but it does seem to be the way most MMA gyms do things.

[Spartacus Maximus]

There are few exceptions but if the person with less-than-honourable actions is family or close friends, then for the sake of that something must be said. It is only a matter of approaching the issue tactfully and preferably in private with the person concerned.

[sensei8]

Leave it be. No point in creating animosity unnecessarily.

I wholeheartedly concur!!

[ShoriKid]

I'm a bit confused as to the connection between the MMA gym you mention and the person you describe. Does this person own the MMA gym? Do they teach there? Or are these two completely separate issues?

Only related by the fact that he asked about the MMA gym when I ran into him near my home. He had one of his students, a low ranked one 8th kyu or there abouts, teaching there and asked me if they had approached me to teach there. His rank/time in training came up as part of his displeasure about the student going behind his back to teach and being dishonest about it when asked. This guy literally teaches up the road from my parents house. I'm sure that his ranking comes from one of the organizations he's joined in the past five or six years.

As for the MMA gym putting people into amateur fights without much skill training, I would say that isn't terribly uncommon. From what I understand, it's pretty standard for MMA gyms to line up amateur fights for people with about 6-9 months of training, with 1-3 hours a week of skills training during that time, and the rest being strength and conditioning. Since promoters will generally match up amateurs with similar amounts of training and experience, these people will probably be fighting someone with about as much skill as they have. It's certainly not my preferred approach, but it does seem to be the way most MMA gyms do things.

Most of the folks listed for their fights have perhaps the 6 months training, but not the 1-3 hours a week in skills work. During the time I helped prep a couple of guys for amateur fights, and considered one myself, it was a much deeper training background with 6-10 hours a week on skills. Most of the strength and conditioning was your responsibility outside of work outs. A different culture I guess. Instructors who don't look out for their students, who throw them into fights ahead of time are not people I care for.

These are both situations that I've run into before. Mostly though, in gyms/dojos far enough away that I was just visiting, or with instructors I had to brush into at a seminar or in one of those far off places. This, in my back yard. I'm also not great at staying quiet about the things I'm passionate about.

I've gone for guarded honesty when asked. I don't intend to wage a PR campaign against the MMA place. However, I won't sugar coat what I think of them if asked by someone I know. As to the friend, it's a hard call. He teaches, he's got a lot invested in wearing that rank and I don't think there is a good way to turn him away from that.

[guird]

Most of the folks listed for their fights have perhaps the 6 months training, but not the 1-3 hours a week in skills work. During the time I helped prep a couple of guys for amateur fights, and considered one myself, it was a much deeper training background with 6-10 hours a week on skills. Most of the strength and conditioning was your responsibility outside of work outs. A different culture I guess. Instructors who don't look out for their students, who throw them into fights ahead of time are not people I care for.

These are both situations that I've run into before. Mostly though, in gyms/dojos far enough away that I was just visiting, or with instructors I had to brush into at a seminar or in one of those far off places. This, in my back yard. I'm also not great at staying quiet about the things I'm passionate about.

I've gone for guarded honesty when asked. I don't intend to wage a PR campaign against the MMA place. However, I won't sugar coat what I think of them if asked by someone I know. As to the friend, it's a hard call. He teaches, he's got a lot invested in wearing that rank and I don't think there is a good way to turn him away from that.

Are you saying that at this MMA gym they spend not even one hour a week hitting pads, sparring, and drilling techniques? If that's the case I predict very poor results for these amateur fighters, and you won't really need to say anything as that will speak for itself. if the fighters do well, then you've probably misjudged the gym..

as for your friend inflating his credentials, you could just ask him about it in private, you may be able to convince him that it wasn't cool and he shouldn't do it again.

[ShoriKid]

Most of the folks listed for their fights have perhaps the 6 months training, but not the 1-3 hours a week in skills work. During the time I helped prep a couple of guys for amateur fights, and considered one myself, it was a much deeper training background with 6-10 hours a week on skills. Most of the strength and conditioning was your responsibility outside of work outs. A different culture I guess. Instructors who don't look out for their students, who throw them into fights ahead of time are not people I care for.

These are both situations that I've run into before. Mostly though, in gyms/dojos far enough away that I was just visiting, or with instructors I had to brush into at a seminar or in one of those far off places. This, in my back yard. I'm also not great at staying quiet about the things I'm passionate about.

I've gone for guarded honesty when asked. I don't intend to wage a PR campaign against the MMA place. However, I won't sugar coat what I think of them if asked by someone I know. As to the friend, it's a hard call. He teaches, he's got a lot invested in wearing that rank and I don't think there is a good way to turn him away from that.

Are you saying that at this MMA gym they spend not even one hour a week hitting pads, sparring, and drilling techniques? If that's the case I predict very poor results for these amateur fighters, and you won't really need to say anything as that will speak for itself. if the fighters do well, then you've probably misjudged the gym..

as for your friend inflating his credentials, you could just ask him about it in private, you may be able to convince him that it wasn't cool and he shouldn't do it again.

Yes, I am saying that they aren't getting the time in. Most of it is conditioning rounds, with voluntary sparring for a few rounds after class end and perhaps an hour or so once a week to hit mitts, work the bag or do any actual skill building. In the small, small world we live in, I spoke to a guy (we'll call him Joe) I know who participated in the fights 2 weeks ago that the local gym sent people to. "Joe" fights out of a gym south of us, a Nova Uniao affiliate. Joe lost one of the local guys, a golden gloves boxer who moved here, in a kick boxing match. The boxer still trains in another town most of the time. The other three fighters went 0-3, a decision, a submission loss, and a TKO. My big problem is, I guess, two fold. One, they are selling a product they aren't delivering which will lead to someone getting hurt. And secondly, in a town this small, anybody teaching gets painted with the same brush. If one person is doing something, everybody assumes that anyone teaching/training is doing the same thing.

On the friend, if the conversation leads that way, I may ask where he got that ranking, as I know he hasn't been at it that long compared to others I know. And when he brings it up, say something about that not being the way I would want to go about it. Don't want bad blood with him. I want to believe that he got into the organization(s) for the contacts and training opportunities after his instructor moved away and got caught up in things.