Wanshu, Wado-Ryu: Questions!

[Melau]

My question is about the first technique performed (block or punch with right arm).

Performed by Hironori Otsuka:

Here it is performed sort of like a punch downward.

Performed in bunkai by Hiroji Fukuzawa:

Here it is explained as a gyakuzuki no tsukomi

The same can be said as to how Tatsuo Suzuki performed it, as for the variation of Jiro Otsuka.

However, I've also been told that it is perfomed as a block, such as performed in kihon kumite 2.

Any thought?

[Spodo Komodo]

I was taught as a punch down, gyakuzuki no tsukkomi, presumably punching to the shin/knee of an incoming kick. A low gedan barai in that stance would deflect the kick towards your right knee due to the wide profile to the front so I am not sure I could convince myself of the bunkai to that one. However the punch comes as the body is travelling to the left so even a block would follow a more direct locus than a normal gedan barai. Maybe it was originally halfway between block and punch? If in doubt go with what you were taught and keep other interpretations handy for bunkai practise.

[mazzybear]

I'm currently learning Wanshu for a competition next month and, the debate in the club as to whether it's a punch or a block is currently a hot topic. My instructor thinks it's more likely to be a block, much like the block in Kihon 2, as also said by the OP. I've not entirely made up my mind but, I'm inclined to go with a punch, although, I would disagree with it being gyakuzuki no tsukomi. I think if it is a punch, then it's more like shta zuki (downward punch) than gyakuzuki no tsukomi (lunge reverse punch) IMO.

Mo.

[Wastelander]

Well, I don't do Wado-Ryu, so my input may not be worth anything to you on the subject. I will say that my old style teaches Enpi, which is a variation of this kata, and they taught that technique as evading and deflecting a punch as you strike a pressure point on the opponent's thigh. I don't like it, personally, because you could go for better targets, but I suppose it does technically work.

My preference would be to use it as an armbar. Your hands come together, first, in such a way that they could be initiating the lock. While the right arm thrusts downward, the left hand appears to touch the right arm just above the elbow, which could indicate where your right hand is supposed to be on your opponent. The stance shift helps drive the opponent to the floor.

[Spodo Komodo]

Sorry, that was me being unclear, I meant the stance was the same as Gyakuzuki no Tsukkomi, the punch is definitely downwards.

[cathal]

To get the official answer for you, ask your sensei. That person would have the bunkai you are supposed to learn at your current level. For me I learned it as enpi in Shotokan and when I was a beginner it was a block.

One of the things I've learned over the years is that when you begin touching a part of yourself it usually means you've got a part of your opponent in bunkai. So you can start off with holding onto your opponent's left arm. As you go down to your left your opponent's body is lowered along with you. The lower block could indeed be a strike to their lower half, putting them off their feet.

Next, that's where the fun comes in. Experiment! Be creative! Find out what works and what doesn't.

[Wado Heretic]

Past Chinto, it must be said there is a great amount of disagreement regarding kata performance among wado-ka. I would therefore be wary of looking further afield for a definitive answer.

I was taught to treat it as a punch when first learning the kata due to the fact it produces greater speed, and power, if one times the the technique well when moving into the initial stance after yoi.

However, if one studies the Kihon and Ohyo kumite, as mentioned, you will discover analogues to the opening move where a similar technique is used as a dodge, and the arm movement as a cover. Furthermore, if used a punch, the second arm becomes "dead" when placed where it is; just above the elbow. It would be superior to the pull the arm back into a defensive position nearer the head and forward facing, if the right arm is performing a punch. Yet, if the right arm is performing a downward block, in anticipation of body-to-body or in-fighting combat; than the supporting arm is in the ideal position. It reinforces the right arm, and at close range is in fact a threatening tool. The counter to this argument, is that the hip movement is counter-intuitive to a defensive move and instead favors a punch. However, as one is dropping their weight, and needs to force their hips 45 degrees in conjunction with the block to get a good stance, then this shall produce sufficient strength if it is indeed a covering movement.

Each to their own though; I would argue that if you are intending to compete than a punch is the better choice. It will usually appear faster and more powerful, and will be easier to create the type of fixture in vogue at the moment. However, from a combative point of view, and from relating the kata to the kumite, I have to argue that it is indeed a block. Also, all the following movements in Wanshu to the opening techniques are in-fighting techniques; not ballistic counters.

Ultimately though, defer to your sensei. He or she will be the judge of what is right and wrong when the time that it matters comes.

[Mark B]

I think it's worth remembering that Tsuki, whether Oi or Gyaku denotes thrust, not punch, as Uke is to receive, not block.

Gyakuzuki Tsukkommi can be reverse descending /downward thrust.

With this in mind it may be possible to consider the opening motion (discounting Yoi) as a technique to destroy posture at close quarter grappling range.

Examples - seize opponents right arm with your left from the outside and pull inwards as in the Kata, this compromises the opponents posture, right hand seize and grip hair/face/throat /clothing, drop weight and thrust in a descending motion .

locate opponents head and draw down to "Yoi ". Drop weight and wrench the head using the opening motion. Obviously a very dangerous option !!

With left hand/arm secure opponents head to your chest/ left shoulder, drop into stance applying descending thrust into appropriate vulnerable target - temple, Corotid sinus, base of skull, collar bone, base of the ear, eye socket - clearly there's lots of options.

I think the key is PRINCIPLES, rather than fixating on a technique.

The opening of Wanshu, in my opinion, deals with close quarter grappling , the motion we're discussing teaches a solid principle for that scenario. The motions that complete the opening sequence expand on this idea - in my opinion

[DaveB]

The technique is a throw, dropping the opponent by driving his shoulder down as you kneel behind him.

The initial kamae with the stacked fists on the hip, tell you that you are holding someone from their flank.

You can take the principle of suddenly dropping your weight to effect a strike but this is not demonstrated in any effective way by the form it's self. Only the throw works if you are sticking to the kata.