Why does Green Belt have the biggest drop-out rate?

[Wado Heretic]

First; I was under the impression that Mick Billman was head of the English Karate Federation. I know Paul Campbell is head event coordination and involved in referee work but I thought Mr Campbell was head of the United Styles Association. Not trying to undermine what you have said Shotokannon, just want to make sure I am thinking of the person I think you are talking about. If so; the yes, he is head event coordinator of the EKF, but is head of his own association, the United Styles Association. Then again, I’ve not been involved in British Karate politics since 2012 so I could be out of date.

Anyway; I have heard of the use of 12 kyu before, especially for juniors, as it allows more regular awards and does help keep them motivated. However, the usual is 10 or 9, for most systems, and especially those that do not make distinctions between adult and junior colour belts. Among Okinawan schools, or schools not so influenced by the mainstream model; I have seen any where from 4, 3, or even 1 Kyu grade used. One dojo I visited once used the average Aikido model, only awarded Dan grades, and would award Shodan on the basis of the instructor feeling you were ready, not by formal grading.

Personally; I reckon it should be considered each to their own depending on the demands of the local student body. If one’s bread and butter are children’s classes, then you might find the need to have a broader belt system which helps keep children motivated with more regular awards, and accounts for the longer time it can take them to absorb knowledge such as Kata. If one’s primary students are adults, and your concern is the preservation of traditions or individual growth of a student, you might have a less formal system where you see grades awarded at the discretion of the instructor. I imagine rate of grading events could also be imagine by the size of a student body, more students would probably require more regular grading events, to ensure all students get the opportunity to grade at appropriate intervals.

I reckon in the martial arts, we let grading be far too divisive a topic. Yes, there are dubious practices, such as belt mills, and places which produce paper tigers. However, it is important to take on good faith that most people have logic, and a reason, behind their approach to grading.

I only use four kyu grades, which is not standard to the organisation I am affiliated with, and what I teach is definitely not standard to the official syllabus of the organisation. I make people stay at white belt for at least six months, with focus on kihon waza, ukemi, kake-kumite, and hojo undo. After that I will begin to teach them naihanchi, and will move them onto green belt after they have the ability to go through naihanchi with a degree of speed and power. Most people will then spend eight months to a year, at green, blue, and purple, and usually two years at brown belt. However, the rate really depends on the student, and whether I decide to put on a formal grading at any point, if there are enough students ready to warrant making an event of it. I do like for a student to have done at least one formal grading though, just to make them ready for Dan grading, but usually I just promote when I feel it suitable. The fastest someone has got through this approach is about four years, but they were very talented and had prior experience in Judo and Kick-boxing.

Anyway; point being, works for me, but I cannot imagine it working for a children’s club, or a commercial school. Also, to return to the original topic question:

With Children:

1. Parents cannot make the time to chaperon them any more, or afford the costs.

2. The child no longer wishes to participate from either boredom, or increasing difficulty they do not wish to adapt to.

3. It begins to compete with other social or sporting activities, and loses out because it is less convenient than the new alternatives.

With Adults:

1. New work or family obligations take up the time otherwise set aside.

2. Emerging health concerns.

3. Cannot juggle the increasing knowledge load, and therefore out of session training, to keep their initial pace and lose enthusiasm.

4. A sense of plateau; not experiencing the original initial health benefits, and quick rewards of early learning.

Why green belt is the compelling question, and I think others have illustrated the best reasons why. It is often the cross roads in most syllabus for moving beyond immediate beginner, to more advanced and demanding teachings. A lot of people just cannot seem to jump the hurdle.

[sensei8]

First; I was under the impression that Mick Billman was head of the English Karate Federation. I know Paul Campbell is head event coordination and involved in referee work but I thought Mr Campbell was head of the United Styles Association. Not trying to undermine what you have said Shotokannon, just want to make sure I am thinking of the person I think you are talking about. If so; the yes, he is head event coordinator of the EKF, but is head of his own association, the United Styles Association. Then again, I’ve not been involved in British Karate politics since 2012 so I could be out of date.

Anyway; I have heard of the use of 12 kyu before, especially for juniors, as it allows more regular awards and does help keep them motivated. However, the usual is 10 or 9, for most systems, and especially those that do not make distinctions between adult and junior colour belts. Among Okinawan schools, or schools not so influenced by the mainstream model; I have seen any where from 4, 3, or even 1 Kyu grade used. One dojo I visited once used the average Aikido model, only awarded Dan grades, and would award Shodan on the basis of the instructor feeling you were ready, not by formal grading.

Personally; I reckon it should be considered each to their own depending on the demands of the local student body. If one’s bread and butter are children’s classes, then you might find the need to have a broader belt system which helps keep children motivated with more regular awards, and accounts for the longer time it can take them to absorb knowledge such as Kata. If one’s primary students are adults, and your concern is the preservation of traditions or individual growth of a student, you might have a less formal system where you see grades awarded at the discretion of the instructor. I imagine rate of grading events could also be imagine by the size of a student body, more students would probably require more regular grading events, to ensure all students get the opportunity to grade at appropriate intervals.

I reckon in the martial arts, we let grading be far too divisive a topic. Yes, there are dubious practices, such as belt mills, and places which produce paper tigers. However, it is important to take on good faith that most people have logic, and a reason, behind their approach to grading.

I only use four kyu grades, which is not standard to the organisation I am affiliated with, and what I teach is definitely not standard to the official syllabus of the organisation. I make people stay at white belt for at least six months, with focus on kihon waza, ukemi, kake-kumite, and hojo undo. After that I will begin to teach them naihanchi, and will move them onto green belt after they have the ability to go through naihanchi with a degree of speed and power. Most people will then spend eight months to a year, at green, blue, and purple, and usually two years at brown belt. However, the rate really depends on the student, and whether I decide to put on a formal grading at any point, if there are enough students ready to warrant making an event of it. I do like for a student to have done at least one formal grading though, just to make them ready for Dan grading, but usually I just promote when I feel it suitable. The fastest someone has got through this approach is about four years, but they were very talented and had prior experience in Judo and Kick-boxing.

Anyway; point being, works for me, but I cannot imagine it working for a children’s club, or a commercial school. Also, to return to the original topic question:

With Children:

1. Parents cannot make the time to chaperon them any more, or afford the costs.

2. The child no longer wishes to participate from either boredom, or increasing difficulty they do not wish to adapt to.

3. It begins to compete with other social or sporting activities, and loses out because it is less convenient than the new alternatives.

With Adults:

1. New work or family obligations take up the time otherwise set aside.

2. Emerging health concerns.

3. Cannot juggle the increasing knowledge load, and therefore out of session training, to keep their initial pace and lose enthusiasm.

4. A sense of plateau; not experiencing the original initial health benefits, and quick rewards of early learning.

Why green belt is the compelling question, and I think others have illustrated the best reasons why. It is often the cross roads in most syllabus for moving beyond immediate beginner, to more advanced and demanding teachings. A lot of people just cannot seem to jump the hurdle.

Solid post!!

[cathal]

After checking into this for a while I'm both impressed and jealous that Wado_Heretic posted first. I can say with confidence that I'm not worried. I agree on the 12th kyu for youth. Mainly because its easier to train kids when they start as young as some I've seen on the website's media.

[Shotokannon]

First; I was under the impression that Mick Billman was head of the English Karate Federation. I know Paul Campbell is head event coordination and involved in referee work but I thought Mr Campbell was head of the United Styles Association. Not trying to undermine what you have said Shotokannon, just want to make sure I am thinking of the person I think you are talking about. If so; the yes, he is head event coordinator of the EKF, but is head of his own association, the United Styles Association. Then again, I’ve not been involved in British Karate politics since 2012 so I could be out of date.

Anyway; I have heard of the use of 12 kyu before, especially for juniors, as it allows more regular awards and does help keep them motivated. However, the usual is 10 or 9, for most systems, and especially those that do not make distinctions between adult and junior colour belts. Among Okinawan schools, or schools not so influenced by the mainstream model; I have seen any where from 4, 3, or even 1 Kyu grade used. One dojo I visited once used the average Aikido model, only awarded Dan grades, and would award Shodan on the basis of the instructor feeling you were ready, not by formal grading.

Personally; I reckon it should be considered each to their own depending on the demands of the local student body. If one’s bread and butter are children’s classes, then you might find the need to have a broader belt system which helps keep children motivated with more regular awards, and accounts for the longer time it can take them to absorb knowledge such as Kata. If one’s primary students are adults, and your concern is the preservation of traditions or individual growth of a student, you might have a less formal system where you see grades awarded at the discretion of the instructor. I imagine rate of grading events could also be imagine by the size of a student body, more students would probably require more regular grading events, to ensure all students get the opportunity to grade at appropriate intervals.

I reckon in the martial arts, we let grading be far too divisive a topic. Yes, there are dubious practices, such as belt mills, and places which produce paper tigers. However, it is important to take on good faith that most people have logic, and a reason, behind their approach to grading.

I only use four kyu grades, which is not standard to the organisation I am affiliated with, and what I teach is definitely not standard to the official syllabus of the organisation. I make people stay at white belt for at least six months, with focus on kihon waza, ukemi, kake-kumite, and hojo undo. After that I will begin to teach them naihanchi, and will move them onto green belt after they have the ability to go through naihanchi with a degree of speed and power. Most people will then spend eight months to a year, at green, blue, and purple, and usually two years at brown belt. However, the rate really depends on the student, and whether I decide to put on a formal grading at any point, if there are enough students ready to warrant making an event of it. I do like for a student to have done at least one formal grading though, just to make them ready for Dan grading, but usually I just promote when I feel it suitable. The fastest someone has got through this approach is about four years, but they were very talented and had prior experience in Judo and Kick-boxing.

Anyway; point being, works for me, but I cannot imagine it working for a children’s club, or a commercial school. Also, to return to the original topic question:

With Children:

1. Parents cannot make the time to chaperon them any more, or afford the costs.

2. The child no longer wishes to participate from either boredom, or increasing difficulty they do not wish to adapt to.

3. It begins to compete with other social or sporting activities, and loses out because it is less convenient than the new alternatives.

With Adults:

1. New work or family obligations take up the time otherwise set aside.

2. Emerging health concerns.

3. Cannot juggle the increasing knowledge load, and therefore out of session training, to keep their initial pace and lose enthusiasm.

4. A sense of plateau; not experiencing the original initial health benefits, and quick rewards of early learning.

Why green belt is the compelling question, and I think others have illustrated the best reasons why. It is often the cross roads in most syllabus for moving beyond immediate beginner, to more advanced and demanding teachings. A lot of people just cannot seem to jump the hurdle.

That's exactly who I'm talking about and what you've said actually clarifies what I intended to say; I'm not the best informed so apologies for the Confusion.

I concur with cathal's post, nothing to worry about at all just as I thought initially, it seems every club has their own rules about how many grades there are and how often they are reviewed etc.

[Hawkmoon]

please forgive my ignorance on how the grades to kyu line up, corrections welcome! !

?

Green (6th Kyu) to purple (5 kyu) would be 12-15mths of work, half way to Shodan?

?

My take would be that to many that's a long period of time and a great deal of work ... just to still be a junior grade!

So to drop out here, would that shine a little on the type of person involved, as in the wrong type of person, so them dropping out is actually a good thing?

(I see this in Kyokushin)

As this is half way isn't this where work load and work rate step up a gear?

Sorry my only experience of grading is in Kyokushin and 5th kyu is the last grade before things go 'knockdown' (up a couple of notches) for many clubs.

(So I'm kind'a assuming it much the same for all systems around the world here, again sorry for my ignorance, corrections welcome!)

[sensei8]

One other reason for students to drop out after reaching Green belt is many students believe that they've learnt enough up to that point to defend themselves.

[Oshishinobu]

Osu

brother congrats on 8 months. I have been doing shotokan for 6 years and I have loved every minute. Going from orange to green the student is thrust into the Intermediate range. This advancement brings with it expectations. The green belt is beginning to get into the more advanced kata and working on more ippon Kumite. I think some just become intimidated with the new things to learn and some just plan get bored.

OSU!

[Shotokannon]

Osu

brother congrats on 8 months. I have been doing shotokan for 6 years and I have loved every minute. Going from orange to green the student is thrust into the Intermediate range. This advancement brings with it expectations. The green belt is beginning to get into the more advanced kata and working on more ippon Kumite. I think some just become intimidated with the new things to learn and some just plan get bored.

OSU!

In my world, the words "Bored" and "Karate" don't even go in the same sentence! =P

[Oshishinobu]

Osu

brother congrats on 8 months. I have been doing shotokan for 6 years and I have loved every minute. Going from orange to green the student is thrust into the Intermediate range. This advancement brings with it expectations. The green belt is beginning to get into the more advanced kata and working on more ippon Kumite. I think some just become intimidated with the new things to learn and some just plan get bored.

OSU!

In my world, the words "Bored" and "Karate" don't even go in the same sentence! =P

OSU!!! Absolutely the moment I hit the dojo the fun begins but I have seen it. Mostly in younger folks and those who are lookin for the kung fu movie.

OSU!

[Nabil Kazama]

Martial Arts is from my experience one of those hobbies/pasttimes you need complete constant dedication to do. Some students can be casual which is fine, but there are the few who are always striving to improve.

As for the green belt dropout well that's a new one on me, I understand that Martial Arts takes time, practice and patience/ Unfortunately most people expect to improve greatly in a short time. Doesn't work like that I'm afraid.