Let's talk Kanku Dai

[Kanku65]

Kanku, I appreciate the effort that you and Wado heretic put in, but honestly such confusion over a question is answer enough.

I recommend you look at Bill Burgars book, 5 years one kata. It gives a good guide on how one can develop a single kata into a whole fighting system. I take a different approach but it's a very good book.

Well put. Thank you for the literature recommendation, I will make sure to archive this title. At this time my reading list feels nearly impossible to complete so it will unfortunately take a back seat for the time being, but it won't go forgotten.

In the end, I believe this to be a matter of a traditional vs. modernized approach to karate.

Clearly both approaches work. To reach a decision of which approach is of the highest benefit could be argued for a very long time to reach a most unclear conclusion, a conclusion I honestly have no true interest in.

I as well as many others before me have found success in the shotokan syllabus, just as you and others before you have found success in your syllabus.

I believe your methods to be without question far more traditional than the shotokan syllabus which I have been taught, but I also believe both ways produce equal outcome.

[sensei8]

MAists have their opinions on the wide scoping topic of kata, this is for sure. Imho, there are no exacting experts on Kata!! Why?? Kata is a lifelong journey that's never reached a defined finale in ones lifetime because not everything can be learnt in our limited, and given, capacities; Oyo is a path that's never ending!!

Experiences! They do differ from practitioner to practitioner, but, imho, what's revealed through ones own Oyo journey, is aided by and through ones experiences, both bad and the good.

In my 50 years in one style, we're all qualified to express what we believe is to be true to that practitioner. My Dai-Soke put it this way...

"I teach you, but without you, I can't be taught. We teach one another!"

Ineffectiveness/effectiveness can't be taught; it has to be experienced!!

Imho.

[Wado Heretic]

TL;DR: The Pinan introduce basic concepts, and the fundamentals, encountered in the Kata of Itosu-ha systems. They are not simply poor man’s Kusanku, in that they have their own internal logic, and unique waza, that are distinct from Kusanku. They are a useful starting point for involvement in Itosu-ha karate, and provide a context for study of older kata. Not necessary for studying kusanku, but a useful body of contextual materials to assist deeper study of other kata.

--

Sadly, it does appear as though what I was attempting to address has been lost in the message. TL;DR in action perhaps; I can be rather verbose. I was speaking in general terms as to why both approaches have merit, and why they have evolved according to the different culture encountered when discussing a kata. Global terms regarding why different approaches have been adopted. To discuss Kusanku Dai and Pinan in direct comparison as regarding their contents requires discussing the actual kata. I will try to summarise in bullet points to keep this brief:

Kusanku Dai:

- Created by Sakukawa Kanga, and derived from the teachings of Kwang Shang Fu; an exponent of Shaolin and Fukian Chuan Fa. It has been suggested he was in fact a teacher of Chinese wrestling as this would make sense of his student developing a kata to preserve his teachings, rather than simply preserving his forms.

- Contains techniques that can be interpreted as useful for body-to-body, and close combat, and the percussive techniques contained habitually include movements for creating and maintaining distance. Furthermore, the movements for evasion which rely on the pivoting of body weight, rather than the movement of the feet, are better suited for the limitations of body-to-body combat. Also, many of the waza are presumptive of a direct meeting of force; compared to Passai or Chinto.

- Thematically; it contains techniques resembling the other kata of the Okinawan canon derived from White Crane systems, however, it also contains several waza found in similarly aged, or older kata.

- It would be nigh on impossible to find a variety of Karate, barring the Naha schools, which has not be influenced by Kusanku.

So in terms of content; what can be learned through an in-depth study of Kusanku is how to confront someone attempting to engage in close combat, and how to end the engagement there, or how to escape it. The influence of the Kata also means it is perhaps the kata to adopt when deepening one’s studies.

Pinan:

- Created by Itosu Anko, and originally named Channan, they are derived from his studies under Matsumura Sōkon; but also his further, and more exhaustive, studies under Chikudun Nagahama, Matsumora Kosaku, and Gusukuma.

- Contain a breadth of techniques which can be utilised in a multitude of ways; body-to-body techniques, trapping, and blows dealt at a distance, and include methods which can be used to deal with unexpected or unusual angles of attack.

- Contains waza from across the spectrum of To De; from Kusanku, Naihanchi, and Passai, but also contains its own distinct waza not found in other kata.

-In terms of content; the Pinan introduce a student to the broad themes of Shuri Te, or at least Itosu derived, systems of karate. Using the Pinan wisely, one can also explore a lot of variations of applications in rather succinct packages.

Now; this perhaps all but confirms that there is no advantage to studying the Pinan prior to Kusanku, as the focus is completely different. However, to return to Kanku65’s point, and something I stated earlier, there is a value in learning variations on a movement; as is the Japanese mindset. Combat is chaotic; the same tool is not going to fit every situation.

To expand on this; our learning process does not exist, nor can it, work in a vacuum. Studying one kata in depth is excellent, and should be done, however you require a context with which to make meaning of the kata’s content. The study of other kata allows this within a singular ryu-ha; especially if one considers each kata to individually be its own system. Homogeneity, and disparateness can be observed, which serves to direct your deep study of your chosen singular kata.

Looking at Burgars’ example; he did not just study one kata. He studied a multitude of varieties of Gojushiro, referenced other martial traditions in his development of applications, and relied heavily on his extensive Shotokan experience as a compass in this singular in-depth exploration. One needs the benefit of context, and experience, before one can engage in a fruitful in-depth study.

However, applying this to the Pinan/Kusanku matter: should one study the Pinan prior to Kusanku; no. Individual’s were training in it for over a century when the Pinan were created. However, these same individual’s studied 2-3 kata, not just Kusanku, and also engaged in Hojo Undo which provides significant feed back on the quality of your technique. They did not study a kata in isolation; it was compared to their other studies, and influenced how they exercised. Also; the Pinan are more than a poor man’s Kusanku; they are a summation of Itosu’s broad understanding of Karate.

Are the Pinan a sufficient or useful contextual body? I would argue yes. They contain ideas one encounters in Kusanku, but also other ideas which the ideas of Kusanku can be compared against. Therefore, if one studies the Pinan first, Kusanku becomes a revision and an expansion of ideas you are already familiar with; but these ideas also have a useful context. This is true for a lot of the kata that traditionally follow the Pinan in many syllabi.

Having a syllabus does not detract from each kata being an individual system, or from a student engaging in their own in-depth study; it provides a context. A context, which if one lacks it, means in-depth study is a dead end as it exists in a vacuum with no means of testing it.

However if training in this way is beneficial, there is nothing stopping you from doing this to kanku dai. Split the kata into six sections, train them sequentially and revise the older lessons as the themes recur in the later parts.

This is the process of teaching anyway; I am not sure how one teaches a kata any other way. You have to use the process of deconstruction, and revision, simply to teach a kata. However, as I pointed out earlier, what my considerations regarding Kusanku Dai are; it teaches a very specific global lesson. If, and apologise if I am misreading the assertion, were I to have to choose between that same teaching method via the Pinan or a series of Kusanku segments I would choose the Pinan. Simply a case of my students getting more out of a similar amount of time; Kusanku may be more sophisticated, but the Pinan are broader and attack more fundamental ideas across the board regarding physical confrontation.

As we become more experienced as Karate-ka, and martial artists in general; we can begin to forget what it was to be a child, or be a beginner in the martial arts. When we reach a certain level, we can become dismissive of what lead us to where we are, because it no longer seems so relevant. To agree with Sensei8; that is why kata are a life long journey, each time we wake up and re-encounter the kata how we view the process changes.

One might be at a point where one needs that in-depth study of one kata; while another might be a point where they benefit from that progressive model. I hope this post has been as exacting as needed to answer the question; I realise the other posts were some what too generalised in scope.

Below is something my student said regarding the progressive model in martial arts when we discussed the matter. I think it makes a strong argument for why we need different models;

As martial arts is a paid service, the student must be shown that their efforts are accomplishing something that gradually increases in difficulty. So they learn Shodan, accomplishment. They then practice more and conquer Nidan, greater accomplishment. It builds confidence in the service and themselves. Martial arts are not a transcendental walk through oneself anymore.

In fact, more complex techniques can easily become memorized movement which has little meaning to a beginner that they later have to unlearn, which is much harder on them than just waiting to learn it.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Wado Heretic

[DaveB]

Kusanku Dai:

- Created by Sakukawa Kanga, and derived from the teachings of Kwang Shang Fu; an exponent of Shaolin and Fukian Chuan Fa. It has been suggested he was in fact a teacher of Chinese wrestling as this would make sense of his student developing a kata to preserve his teachings, rather than simply preserving his forms.

- Contains techniques that can be interpreted as useful for body-to-body, and close combat, and the percussive techniques contained habitually include movements for creating and maintaining distance. Furthermore, the movements for evasion which rely on the pivoting of body weight, rather than the movement of the feet, are better suited for the limitations of body-to-body combat. Also, many of the waza are presumptive of a direct meeting of force; compared to Passai or Chinto.

- Thematically; it contains techniques resembling the other kata of the Okinawan canon derived from White Crane systems, however, it also contains several waza found in similarly aged, or older kata.

- It would be nigh on impossible to find a variety of Karate, barring the Naha schools, which has not be influenced by Kusanku.

So in terms of content; what can be learned through an in-depth study of Kusanku is how to confront someone attempting to engage in close combat, and how to end the engagement there, or how to escape it. The influence of the Kata also means it is perhaps the kata to adopt when deepening one’s studies.

WH, you're writing above was particularly interesting to me because while it seemed we come at the kata from different angles as I read on I found myself concurring with your thoughts based on my own study.

Would you mind going into more detail/giving examples regarding the bold text above?

[LeighSimmsMA]

WadoHeretic wrote:

"Are the Pinan a sufficient or useful contextual body? I would argue yes. They contain ideas one encounters in Kusanku, but also other ideas which the ideas of Kusanku can be compared against. Therefore, if one studies the Pinan first, Kusanku becomes a revision and an expansion of ideas you are already familiar with; but these ideas also have a useful context. This is true for a lot of the kata that traditionally follow the Pinan in many syllabi."

Pretty Much Agree and well written explanation. It maybe that Kusanku does introduce a small number of principles/specific techniques that Itosu did not utilize in the creation of the Pinan Kata (Im thinking the dropping to the floor motions). But overall if you learn the Pinan Kata then I agree you are learning a lot of Kusanku too.

On the other hand, you can study just Kusanku.

I think both ways work fine. I know its antedotal but I know clubs who make it work both ways.

[LeighSimmsMA]

A karateka who spend 2 years on hian katas and then 3 months on kankudai has more ability and understanding than a student who spent 2 years and 3 months on kankudai alone .

Can you explain why you believe that to be true?

[pers]

A karateka who spend 2 years on hian katas and then 3 months on kankudai has more ability and understanding than a student who spent 2 years and 3 months on kankudai alone .

Can you explain why you believe that to be true?

Hian katas are building blocks to reach a level of understanding to perform katas like kankudai ,just like going to primary school first and then to secondary school .

one needs to learn the alphabet first ,then simple words and make simple essays before getting to more complex literature .

Now there is nothing stopping someone starting kankudai from scratch without any prior knowledge or experience of martial arts but I believe the ones who started off from beginner katas such as hian katas will build a better foundation to understand and perform katas such as kankudai .

[Wado Heretic]

Sorry for the delayed response; this week decided to take a time consuming turn. I had also considered the possibility of making a video explanation but could not find a volunteer.

I think Passai Sho/Bassai Dai is perhaps the closest point of comparison to the Kusanku; for both contain the sequence of front-viewing square stance, with a vertical hammer-fist block and punch in that position, before moving/leaning off to the left and performing a right forearm block.

The difference though, is that in Kusanku one maintains pressure on the opponent with the front leg, as the front leg pivots into square stance. In contrast, in Passai, one has to project into the position.

Prior to this, in Kusanku we perform a shuto uke in back-stance; in back stance we have moved the body, but not our weight specifically, back removing our centre line from danger but allowing us to stop on coming force. If we interpret the move for example as an attempt to deal with a grab to the lapel or throat with one hand to be followed by a punch, a relatively common occurrence, it makes sense to do this. Using the hand position, we can control the grabbing arm, while also covering against the on coming attack. Also, by pulling ourselves back, but keeping our weight even, we pull them off balance, but do not unsettle our own stance. With the feet as positioned, the front leg can used to attack their leg and further destabilise their balance.

By maintaining pressure with the front foot, and maintaining control with the arms, by using our hips to turn into shiko-dachi, one can then pull the attacker over. However, if this initial pull did not work, one could twist the arm of the attacker, and then shift their weight to the left, and apply pressure to the arm, to force the attacker to the ground.

However, if we try this same method for Passai, the stance moving into the same movement does not apply enough pressure on the attacker. Also, if the attacker was attacking straight on and had body control; defending in cat stance or crossing stance would at best be fool-hardy. However, if we use it as a technique for moving around ballistic attacks, and for absorbing and dealing with techniques at an angle, it still makes sense. So if we move around, say an attempted push, we could then strike the attacker in the side, follow their direction of movement, and work from there into a take down.

So hopefully the above gives a direct example of 1: Application reasoning, and 2: similarities in similarly aged kata. Jitte is another place from where shared sequences can be found. In terms of white crane kata; I see many similarities in Gojushiro; primarily those of creating distance, or engaging at close range.

[DaveB]

So hopefully the above gives a direct example of 1: Application reasoning, and 2: similarities in similarly aged kata. Jitte is another place from where shared sequences can be found. In terms of white crane kata; I see many similarities in Gojushiro; primarily those of creating distance, or engaging at close range.

By looking at the original kata sequence published by Funakoshi, the kata are given in such a way as to signal how they are grouped.

The first three kata are the core "system" kata: those that detail the methods central to the fighting strategy. The next kata are the sets that support each of these kata, so after the Pinan, the next few kata are the supplementary forms to the Kusanku fighting method.

Excluding Jitte and Jion as an obvious stand alone system, that gives the supplementary kata for kanku dai as Bassai dai, Empi (Wanshu), Hangetsu (Siesan) and Gankaku (Chinto). So, at least in terms of Shotokan derived kata, the relationship between Bassai and kanku is one of alternative techniques; methods building on different aspects of kanku dai and highlighting usage in different situations.

Bassai dai follows the adage given by Funakoshi, turning disadvantage into advantage I.e. retaking the initiative. Such methods can be reinterpreted into attacking methods too.

[Wado Heretic]

I cannot really disagree within the context of Shotokan-ryu; Funakoshi did devise a certain logic to how he taught, and expanded on the kata. I shall try and find where it was asserted, but it has been stated that Funakoshi only studied Naihanchi and Kusanku for the majority of his career, and only picked up the other kata he taught shortly before leaving Okinawa for Japan. This would make sense of the heavy reference to Naihanchi and Kusanku throughout the other Kata, as well as some "errors" in some other the other kata. If he interpreted and taught the kata as an expansion of his in-depth knowledge of Kusanku, then it would be appropriate the view each kata as an expansion, and variation, of the principles of Kusanku.

In my provided example, does shotokan-ryu in Passai follow the same pattern as Wado-Ryu; when moving into the front facing naihanchi-dachi, and performing the fore-arm/hammer-fist cover and punch does one arrive from neko-ashi-dachi and stay relatively upright?

In Wado-ryu you move into the position from neko-ashi-dachi, so it's a very small movement and you stay relatively upright. However, in shorin-ryu, one moves into it from cross stance, and into a front viewing shiku-dachi, so it is a very large movement which involves dropping ones weight down significantly. In contrast in Kusanku, you pivot from a deep back stance into shiku-dachi; so it's a very subtle move, you maintain a strong base, and you stay deep. How one exits this otherwise shared sequence also differs significantly; as do the general principles of the Kata in Shorin-Ryu. Therefore I interpret this to mean the sequence should be used differently, not just as variations of the same application, in each kata; even if in terms of performance they appear the same, the content, in my opinion differs. This though is based on my experience of Shorin-Ryu, and I cannot refute the logic regarding the Shotokan kata.

To paraphrase Mabuni Kenwa; he insisted that one should study 2-3 kata as "your" kata, and treat other kata as supplementary to those. I could see Funakoshi modelling his way of teaching on a similar line of thinking; as both his students in Ohtsuka and Konishi used similar models in their construction of Wado-Ryu and Shindo Jinen-Ryu.