Let's talk Kanku Dai

[Wastelander]

For what it's worth, most versions of Kusanku that I have seen which feature leg techniques in that sequence of the kata use the nami-gaeshi movements found in Naihanchi Shodan. This is the only one I've seen where the heels come up behind like that. Just some food for thought--I find that looking at other versions of a kata can help improve my understanding of the possible applications of the kata.

[cathal]

I've been informed that the first two movements (looking to the sky, and the arms moving down) are similar to an interpretation of looking at the sunset, then the zen shape for Universe. The last two movements can be seen as the fist representing the setting moon followed by the reverse movement for universe. This can be thought of as a ying/yang symbol with respect to the opposites represented in the kata. Any thoughts?

[Wastelander]

I've been informed that the first two movements (looking to the sky, and the arms moving down) are similar to an interpretation of looking at the sunset, then the zen shape for Universe. The last two movements can be seen as the fist representing the setting moon followed by the reverse movement for universe. This can be thought of as a ying/yang symbol with respect to the opposites represented in the kata. Any thoughts?

I think those are lovely symbolic interpretations, but I stopped valuing such interpretations about 7 years ago. Usually, the people who told me those kinds of interpretations seemed to use them for movements they couldn't explain from a practical standpoint. I have since learned practical combative applications for them, so I feel no desire to fill in gaps with pretty imagery.

All that said, I do think that, sometimes, the initial and final hand position in kata can be symbolic. Usually, your hands are in some form of "hands-ready position" (http://cryptome.org/info/usss-hands/usss-hands.htm) at the beginning and end of kata. This provides you a useful, practical starting point. Some people have been known to use Buddhist hand positions for this, as well. This also fits with Chibana Chosin's teachings; "There is no kamae in a karate kata, except for the beginning and end of the kata. Everything else is transition and application.

[cathal]

I've been informed that the first two movements (looking to the sky, and the arms moving down) are similar to an interpretation of looking at the sunset, then the zen shape for Universe. The last two movements can be seen as the fist representing the setting moon followed by the reverse movement for universe. This can be thought of as a ying/yang symbol with respect to the opposites represented in the kata. Any thoughts?

I think those are lovely symbolic interpretations, but I stopped valuing such interpretations about 7 years ago. Usually, the people who told me those kinds of interpretations seemed to use them for movements they couldn't explain from a practical standpoint. I have since learned practical combative applications for them, so I feel no desire to fill in gaps with pretty imagery.

All that said, I do think that, sometimes, the initial and final hand position in kata can be symbolic. Usually, your hands are in some form of "hands-ready position" (http://cryptome.org/info/usss-hands/usss-hands.htm) at the beginning and end of kata. This provides you a useful, practical starting point. Some people have been known to use Buddhist hand positions for this, as well. This also fits with Chibana Chosin's teachings; "There is no kamae in a karate kata, except for the beginning and end of the kata. Everything else is transition and application.

For me it is a nice story, something that I enjoy. I don't let it affect out the bunkai works out, though.

[DaveB]

I think that Funakoshi's rename of the kata to "viewing the sky" was emblematic of the two main elements of the system: evasion, letting your opponent see only air where you once were; and the high volume of throwing techniques that also cause the opponent to "view the sky" when they land on their backs.

Consequently I view the whole kata through the lens of the air element. Strikes like shuto whip with speed and no weight to set up big gale force "gusts" that hit with the whole body like the elbow strikes. As stated, the kata implies whole body evasion and body shifting, so one never takes the force of a blow directly and uses tight spins and height changes to drop opponents on the ground.

[cathal]

I think that Funakoshi's rename of the kata to "viewing the sky" was emblematic of the two main elements of the system: evasion, letting your opponent see only air where you once were; and the high volume of throwing techniques that also cause the opponent to "view the sky" when they land on their backs.

Consequently I view the whole kata through the lens of the air element. Strikes like shuto whip with speed and no weight to set up big gale force "gusts" that hit with the whole body like the elbow strikes. As stated, the kata implies whole body evasion and body shifting, so one never takes the force of a blow directly and uses tight spins and height changes to drop opponents on the ground.

Well said! I agree with this because it allows us to see this kata in a new light. Whenever you can interpret something new it lends to a new creative voice in bunkai. I originally learned all of my kata using elemental references, actually.

[sensei8]

The Kata that we're discussing is a nice one, as all are, imho. Why? The Bunkai/applications are up for US to interpret through Oyo, and sky's the limit per ones imagination. This Kata addresses many techniques that can be effective BUT nothing's overlooked as possibilities.

Within this Kata, there's an overwhelming treasure trove of possibilities at each and every step; Bunkai heaven. Then, this Kata has a warm-up for Unsu; the big jumping turn, whereas Kanku Dai has a much smaller version. So many possibilities, and so many things to discover; might take a lifetime to uncover them all.

[cathal]

The Kata that we're discussing is a nice one, as all are, imho. Why? The Bunkai/applications are up for US to interpret through Oyo, and sky's the limit per ones imagination. This Kata addresses many techniques that can be effective BUT nothing's overlooked as possibilities.

Within this Kata, there's an overwhelming treasure trove of possibilities at each and every step; Bunkai heaven. Then, this Kata has a warm-up for Unsu; the big jumping turn, whereas Kanku Dai has a much smaller version. So many possibilities, and so many things to discover; might take a lifetime to uncover them all.

Very well said.

[pers]

I've been informed that the first two movements (looking to the sky, and the arms moving down) are similar to an interpretation of looking at the sunset, then the zen shape for Universe. The last two movements can be seen as the fist representing the setting moon followed by the reverse movement for universe. This can be thought of as a ying/yang symbol with respect to the opposites represented in the kata. Any thoughts?

I think those are lovely symbolic interpretations, but I stopped valuing such interpretations about 7 years ago. Usually, the people who told me those kinds of interpretations seemed to use them for movements they couldn't explain from a practical standpoint. I have since learned practical combative applications for them, so I feel no desire to fill in gaps with pretty imagery.

All that said, I do think that, sometimes, the initial and final hand position in kata can be symbolic. Usually, your hands are in some form of "hands-ready position" (http://cryptome.org/info/usss-hands/usss-hands.htm) at the beginning and end of kata. This provides you a useful, practical starting point. Some people have been known to use Buddhist hand positions for this, as well. This also fits with Chibana Chosin's teachings; "There is no kamae in a karate kata, except for the beginning and end of the kata. Everything else is transition and application.

Well said , I agree . The version of kankudai that I trained in was close to the one from Osaka ,simply because my sensei teach us that way and he performed it like what Osaka is doing with tremendous speed and power and precision .

I love this kata as it contains the concept of many katas rolled in one , you can not master this kata without mastering those other ones first .

[DaveB]

What is it that one gains in the hiean kata that they can't do without for learning kanku dai?