Let's talk Kanku Dai

[Mark B]

Nothing.

As I've said on numerous occasions kata are systems in, and of themselves.

You don't learn the Pinan series as a precursor to learning Kusanku.

You don't learn Passai and Seisan to feed into Chinto.

you don't learn Naihanchi to feed into Seisan.

you don't learn Jion, or any other form as a means of learning basics (which has been suggested elsewhere on this forum).

The kata existed long before style or syllabus and should be seen as the physical recording of the main preferences, principles and ideas of the fighting style of the person (s) to which that particular kata relates.

As I think I demonstrated on the Jion thread what we're talking about here is practicing a given kata, Kusanku in this conversation, to a level of unconscious competence that will take years of diligent study.

Learning the form itself is easy! The hard (but fun) part is extracting the information, creating drills for all the possibilities -all the striking options, takedowns and throws, pushing, sticking and trapping exercises, seizing, joint attacks and locks, targeting vulnerable areas- then you have to drill problem solving, what ifs etc and that list is long !!! You're then gonna need to raise the level of all these drills, applications and exercises to a point where they're fit for actual combat of the most serious nature.

Learning a kata, then motoring through a set of Bunkai exercises with a fairly compliant partner is not "knowing" a kata.

We're all on this path, which is long and demanding. I think it would be made much easier if people can understand what is meant by "studying "a kata

all the best.

[DaveB]

Hi Mark,

I generally agree, but it's always worth hearing the other side of the argument.

If we always agree we never learn anything. If we keep silence in the face of disagreement we can never divine what part of our own belief is truth and what is fiction.

[Mark B]

Hi DaveB,

you're absolutely right.

If a person chooses to learn all the kata they possibly can, then practice elaborate Bunkai to karate style attacks then that is their business, and I certainly have no right to tell people how to train. However, , there is loads of documented info that directs us towards the preferred approach to centreing our training around kata.

I do concede that there are many ways to train, and many reasons too, and I guess each is as valid as the next, but if we enter a dojo, practice karate around deep study of a few kata as a GENUINE system for self defence then I personally think it can be a little bit dangerous if we're not able to be honest with ourselves (and our students), if that's not your goal then that is, of course perfectly fine

[pers]

What is it that one gains in the hiean kata that they can't do without for learning kanku dai?

I base my opinion from my 30 years experience in shotokan karate , I have no experience in other schools of karate .

shotokan karate is based on building a strong foundation from start , hian katas are part of that building block that take a novice student step by step further up the ladder ,it is a long and slow process as there are no short cuts in achieving a higher level .

Now if there are schools that don't do it this way and skip hian katas and go straight into brown belt katas like kankudai ,Basai dai and so on then so be it .

I don't agree with it but good luck to those who do it that way .

I don't think they can understand or perform it the way a student who has gone through rigorous training in hian katas for two or three years before doing brown belt katas .

[Mark B]

Hi Pers,

I write this post with all due respect, but you seem to have an obsession with syllabus and grade.

Kusanku, Passai etc are only "brown belt kata " if that's how a particular syllabus is structured.

In Wado for example Passai is often a kata for Nidan.

A student could learn Kusanku rather than the Pinan, and spend 3-4 years doing it. That is, in fact, the way it was done in the old days. As it happens, Naihanchi was often the first form learned, although Seisan was also the first form learned.

Syllabus was, and is, a modern creation

[DaveB]

What is it that one gains in the hiean kata that they can't do without for learning kanku dai?

I base my opinion from my 30 years experience in shotokan karate , I have no experience in other schools of karate .

shotokan karate is based on building a strong foundation from start , hian katas are part of that building block that take a novice student step by step further up the ladder ,it is a long and slow process as there are no short cuts in achieving a higher level .

Now if there are schools that don't do it this way and skip hian katas and go straight into brown belt katas like kankudai ,Basai dai and so on then so be it .

I don't agree with it but good luck to those who do it that way .

I don't think they can understand or perform it the way a student who has gone through rigorous training in hian katas for two or three years before doing brown belt katas .

You didn't answer the question being asked.

I am trying to understand what precisely a student gains from going through the hiean kata, that he cannot gain from spending the time studying kanku dai?

You state that things are done a certain way in Shotokan and that Kanku dai is a brown belt kata. But Gichin Funakoshi, the Shoto in Shotokan, published a syllabus in 1925, in which kanku dai was the third kata. Why would he have done that if what you say is correct.

We also know that Kanku dai was created some decades before the heian kata were created. If what you say about the necessary progression is correct, how did they manage?

Please don't see this as an attack. These are three questions that I genuinely am curious about your answers to.

[Wastelander]

The Pinan kata are certainly built out of techniques from Passai, Kusanku, and Chinto, but I'm in agreement with Mark B that the Pinan kata aren't necessary prerequisites for the older kata. Because they contain many similar movements, I do think they can make it easier to learn the older kata, but that's kind of grading on a curve. In the time it took the student to learn all five Pinan kata, they could have simply been refining the older kata to begin with. In the long term view, a student will become more proficient with the older kata sooner by not learning the Pinan kata first.

Now, that isn't to say that the Pinan kata have no value. While I certainly prefer older kata, the Pinan series contains a lot of good fighting techniques. I just don't feel that they are required steps on the ladder. Instead, I feel like they are extra steps. My Sensei feels the same way, and if they weren't a requirement in our organization, we would probably have stopped teaching the Pinan kata, completely.

[pers]

What is it that one gains in the hiean kata that they can't do without for learning kanku dai?

I base my opinion from my 30 years experience in shotokan karate , I have no experience in other schools of karate .

shotokan karate is based on building a strong foundation from start , hian katas are part of that building block that take a novice student step by step further up the ladder ,it is a long and slow process as there are no short cuts in achieving a higher level .

Now if there are schools that don't do it this way and skip hian katas and go straight into brown belt katas like kankudai ,Basai dai and so on then so be it .

I don't agree with it but good luck to those who do it that way .

I don't think they can understand or perform it the way a student who has gone through rigorous training in hian katas for two or three years before doing brown belt katas .

You didn't answer the question being asked.

I am trying to understand what precisely a student gains from going through the hiean kata, that he cannot gain from spending the time studying kanku dai?

You state that things are done a certain way in Shotokan and that Kanku dai is a brown belt kata. But Gichin Funakoshi, the Shoto in Shotokan, published a syllabus in 1925, in which kanku dai was the third kata. Why would he have done that if what you say is correct.

We also know that Kanku dai was created some decades before the heian kata were created. If what you say about the necessary progression is correct, how did they manage?

Please don't see this as an attack. These are three questions that I genuinely am curious about your answers to.

Hi Dave , I don't know why you think I have an obsession with syllabus and grade !

It is not an obsession ,just the way I trained and I based my opinion on it .

I did say this is one way and does not mean it is the only way ,if other styles or schools do it different way then so be it , I am not saying they are wrong .

I did answer your question ,saying Hian katas are the steps we take to prepare and progress towards gaining knowledge and condition our body and mind towards more advance katas .

what funakoshi did and train in 1925 belongs to that era , karate has evolved and when I started in 1984 shotokan had evolved and progressed to the present time training .

I still do Hian shodan to polish my techniques ,it still is one of my favourite katas ,it conditions my limbs .

Hian shodan despite being a basic kata and one of the first katas that beginner students in shotokan learn is a great kata for conditioning even for those advance karatekas .

If I don't know a karateka beforehand watching him perform hian shodan gives me a good indication on how prominent he or she is in their karate.

I have no knowledge of wadoryu ,shorin ryu or any other ryu . I only comment on what I know which is shotokan .

shotokan is my way but I know it is not the only way and I am not disregarding other ways ,just commenting on the way I know ...

If in other styles they start off in kankudai from day 1 and skip Hian katas and make good progress then good luck to them .

I do believe that all martial arts reach a same summit despite taking different routes to get there .

[Wado Heretic]

I would generally like to think of Itosu as a thoughtful and intelligent character, with a deliberate approach to his karate. This being the impression his writing, and the anecdotes of his students, I have felt I have been given. Therefore, I would not be quick to dismiss the Pinan kata as the inevitable lesser sibling to Kusanku, Chinto, and Passai from which the series appears to be drawn.

In Japanese Karate Do, one must remember the Japanese concept of Kata is distinct from the Okinawan concept of Karate. If one pays attention to the Kata of Judo, Jujutsu, and Kobujutsu; one can identify the nature of Japanese kata. In paired kata, the individuals work in unison with the intent of achieving the ideal of the kata; there is purposeful passivity. In individual kata, in particular Iaido, the movements are performed as individual sequences with each technique in of itself significant.

A Japanese kata is the rehearsal of a technique in its idealised form. It is distinct from the practice of Waza, and does not involve a case of Seme and Uke; attacker and receiver. This attitude permeates Japanese karate; the practice of ones kata is the perfection of technique and the principles of movement represented. Not a rehearsal of combative concepts, in fact it pays no heed to the idea of “fighting” as is often found in modern practices regarding Bunkai. Rather, Waza and randori is where the notion of attack and defence is found in Japanese martial arts; a perfect example would be the Kihon Kumite of Wado-Ryu, regarding how this concept has influenced Japanese karate. A broader example would be Yakusoku Kumite or promise sparring; where one takes on the role of attacker and attacks in a pre-arranged way, and one receives and overcomes the attack.

In contrast; the Okinawa mindset to kata, and technique (waza) is fundamentally different. It borrows very much from the Chinese mindset, although nuanced by its own idiosyncrasies. In Chinese martial arts, the majority of Taolu (forms/kata) have a traditional two man set or variation, which is designed to be used to demonstrate and practice applications of the forms techniques. This is indeed how the kata are viewed in traditional RyuKyu martial arts; every kata has a direct series of applications, although it appears, if judging by the words of Mabuni Kenwa and Miyagi Chojun, that by the turn of the century that the Okinawan practice was more interpretive than the Chinese approach. This in turn has perhaps lead to today’s “reverse-engineering” and borrowing from other martial arts to redefine bunkai into combatives. Mabuni famously opined that rigid kumite forms such as Yakusoku kumite could not reflect the chaos of combat, where as the practice of Kata present a multitude of possibilities and that a deep study of the kata was more useful than exchanging pre-arranged attacks and responses. In short, Mabuni was putting down the Japanese tradition without exactly attacking the Japanese Budo tradition.

Furthermore; Hojo Undo. To the Okinawa mindset, one must condition the body to have good technique, whereas in the Japanese mindset good technique should trump any infirmities. However, this is not to say conditioning is not important in the traditional Japanese mindset, but where as in Okinawa one will encounter many different devices for conditioning the body, and each with a very specific form of conditioning in mind; in traditional Japanese martial arts one merely rehearses technique to the extreme, and against adversity. For example, Sumo; where famously weights are not used during training despite the size and strength of Sumo, or Kenjutsu where a heavy bokken may be used but no other type of weight. One simply trains to an extreme.

I am sure heterodox examples exist which counteract these generalisations by the way, and am aware of a handful, but for now I believe it better to discuss the matter in broad terms. To apply these differences to the mindset of syllabus encountered in Japanese karate, and the progressive notions discussed, one need only look at how the mindset differs. To those of the combative mindset, the Pinan hold less value than more “advanced” and older kata, as the techniques that make up the Pinan are derivative, and ultimately there are only so many times one should revisit their lecture notes. Essentially; if one is finding what they need out of Kusanku, why revisit it in the Pinan? It is a waste of time.

However, the Pinan do contain distinct techniques, and even several reminiscent and repeated techniques feature a distinctive way to get from A to B in the Pinan when compared to its most immediate source. To the Japanese mindset it is therefore a worthwhile exercise to practice this alternate technique, and its way of movement, even if it is a simple variation of a Waza found elsewhere. The Japanese also seek homogeneity through out their systemisation of Martial arts; for example there are great over laps between movement with the sword, and movement without a sword in traditional Japanese martial arts. Indeed; a saying I have encountered states that a skilled swordsman should be as able to apply the lessons of the sword as readily to the empty hand, as he could any blade.

Again, to return to Wado-Ryu as an example; Hironori Ohtsuka excluded Kusanku Sho, Passai Dai, and Naihanchi Nidan and Sadan from his selection of Kata, arguing that Kusanku Dai, Passai Sho, and Naihanchi Shodan contained all that was useful from the aforementioned kata series. Therefore, he did have a discerning eye regarding which kata to include in his system, and indeed taught a specific formula and logic as to why he taught as he did. He argued that the Pinan kata contained the basic premise of the principles found in Kusanku, but that they contained their own distinct concepts. He also argued that Naihanchi contained the basic principles, which are then explored further in Seisan, and that all the ideas from these prior kata meet and come together in Chinto, but again with new distinct nuances. This is a perfect example of where the distinct nature of each kata is exonerated, but where homogeneity through out the system is also sought.

In short; in the Japanese mindset the homogeneity of the syllabus is what matters. Whereas, in Okinawa the approach is that each kata is in of it self a treasure trove of information. So we are all wrong, and some how all right. Mostly though, we are all still dancing in white pyjamas, and should just enjoy dancing how we like. I only take issue with people who advertise self-defence, but then never bridge what they do in the Dojo to actual real violence. Otherwise, enjoy your hobby how you enjoy your hobby.

Anyway; my interpretation of Kusanku is that it is a grappling kata, with the intent being either teaching body-to-body fighting concepts, or possible solutions for them. So, in my own practice of Kusanku, I generally allow my wrestling and Judo experience to inform my stances, and how I move through. This is based both on the actual content of the Kata, and the reported assertion that Kusanku was a Chinese wrestling instructor. Have to say that sadly none of the posted examples are supremely close to my own, so will try and find one.

I do teach the Pinan, and find them useful as ways of introducing different fighting ranges and concepts. For example I use Sandan as a gate way into body-to-body fighting because a lot of it's movements lend itself to that. So it is useful for specifying your training on a particular focus, when kusanku can become incredibly broad.

Edit: The version posted performed by Shugoro Nakazato is the closest I have found on youtube. However, our version uses a lot more stance transitions, and a front viewing shuto that seems absent from most of these versions. Might just have to film myself doing it.

[pers]

very interesting read keith ....I agree Hian or pinan as you say in wadoryu represent different concepts and yes Kankudai has many grappling moves .

you explained it much better than me ,you seem to have a broad knowledge of okinawa ans japanese karate .

I never had the time or patience to study them deeply ,just buried myself deep within training in shotokan .