a weird pet peeve I have about martial arts

[cathal]

Something to consider with respect to calling someone master is that a long time ago the phrase master meant something very different. Many know the master had perfected certain skills, techniques, and/or abilities. Yet in addition to all this the master was able to pass it on. To be a master at something meant you had also earned the respect & acknowledgement of others who were at that skill level. In the past this made it easier for those who wanted proper training to get it. For example if you wanted to learn carpentry you'd seek out a master carpenter. Certain jobs required that masters of their craft would be involved in order to guarantee a certain standard.

The modern interpretation of master does have a lot of negative press. Thus a wide range of people especially in North America see it in that way as well. Now combine this with contemporary democratic & capitalist sentiments of universal suffrage making us all equal. (Therefore no one is a master over another.) Of course most people may see the word Master as being wholly negative. Many years ago there was a post on here about a user who vehemently refused to bow to his sensei, the master, etc. in part due to this point of view.

Pet peeve notwithstanding, it behoves us to acknowledge the training and experience our instructors have in some respectful manner. Simply do so according to your conscience

[DaveB]

I think you have a point here, however I would argue that experience does make one better. Not that anyone would ever achieve perfection but someone who has been doing the same punches and kicks for 20 years should certainly be better at it than someone who has say 2 years of experience

.

But why can't anyone ever achieve perfection? It's just a punch, not neuro-surgery. The phrase rolls off the tongue as if it's as obvious as the colour of the sky, but it's utter nonsense. It's just a punch; a few muscle activations timed together, probably less complicated than smiling.

The perfect punch to me is the one that lands when and where you want it to and endless practice of basic technique alone will never achieve this.

Even by that definition; one involving all the variables of a moving target, perfection is not impossible. And if perfection is unattainable why do we even allowing the idea into the dojo? What good is an unattainable target, other than to get the logic-impaired to keep paying up indefinitely?

Lastly if we can do away with the bovine fecal matter that is the notion of unattainable perfection, then what is wrong with saying, "actually I can do that"? Why does egoless honesty offend? Jealousy perhaps?

Show me one top level athletes who became the best by telling themselves "I can never do..."?

[cathal]

DaveB, the "seek perfection" aspect of Shotokan is widely misunderstood. I shall seek to make it easier for you to understand because it seems you have the incorrect idea.

First and foremost it isn't a perfection of punch. Or any single technique. Rather it is a seeking of a perfection of combination of thought, mind, use of ki, execution, and character that combine. This constant striving to improve, to grow, to become better in physical and mental attributes is a core concept.

After years of performing CORRECTLY any one technique you can argue you've perfected it. OK so have you properly used your Ki in this technique? You will know after a long enough time and with enough diligent practice that you are or aren't. Next, what mindset are you using? Are you experiencing no-mind, are you thinking of your schedule? Only you can know, but some masters have been able to determine if you are just by watching you. As you can see this piles up showing you that there are many ways you can improve.

As you improve your technique, the overall execution improves along with it. But does your character improve as well? Are you seeking to avoid violence? Are you seeking to test yourself by finding excuses to fight? All of these things are meant to meditate upon. If we are given the skills and ability to kill then we must by definition use our conscience in order to perform this skills. Without our superior minds and spirits/souls/etc to guide our actions we are merely beasts; Else we are thugs.

This also causes us to re-examine ourselves as we progress year after year of training. Are we teaching our students violence or self-defence? Do they understand the monumental responsibility of the consequences of their potential actions in fights? etc.

[DaveB]

And another thing! (Did I mention this topic winds me up)?

The over-focus on technique as a result of the notion of perfection causes karateka in particular to fixate on what a punch or kick or blockng should be not what it can be.

I firmly believe karateka got the rep of punching bags because they went into fights trying to be the karate perfect poseurs they thought they should be when the truth of all fighting arts is that they have to mold to the person and situation.

If perfection technique says the reverse punch is thrown from a front stance, what do you do when you're leaning and turning in half a crane stance because that's where your dodge reflex put you?

Much like with beauty, the notion of perfection tries to standardise something, to crystallise that which is both subjective and ever adapting. It benefits only those who claim to have the keys to finding it, even as they claim that you can never get there.

[cathal]

And another thing! (Did I mention this topic winds me up)?

The over-focus on technique as a result of the notion of perfection causes karateka in particular to fixate on what a punch or kick or blockng should be not what it can be.

I firmly believe karateka got the rep of punching bags because they went into fights trying to be the karate perfect poseurs they thought they should be when the truth of all fighting arts is that they have to mold to the person and situation.

If perfection technique says the reverse punch is thrown from a front stance, what do you do when you're leaning and turning in half a crane stance because that's where your dodge reflex put you?

Much like with beauty, the notion of perfection tries to standardise something, to crystallise that which is both subjective and ever adapting. It benefits only those who claim to have the keys to finding it, even as they claim that you can never get there.

I certainly get the feeling you are bitter or angry about this. Whomever instructed you in Shotokan took the wrong approach. This isn't what Shotokan is, nor what it intends to be.

The rigidity in practicing technique repeatedly of course builds muscle memory, and strengthens you as well. But it is not intended on teaching you there is only this one thing for all aspects, situations, etc. If you were taught that, it is also incorrect. When instructors insist on you executing your technique the same way each time this is a function of teaching discipline and consistency in technique, not that it is the only choice. Again if someone taught you that, they are wrong.

You can rest assured most Shotokan instructors and practitioners I know do not think so narrow-mindedly about this.

[hansenator]

So it's like a type of meditation?

DaveB, the "seek perfection" aspect of Shotokan is widely misunderstood. I shall seek to make it easier for you to understand because it seems you have the incorrect idea.

First and foremost it isn't a perfection of punch. Or any single technique. Rather it is a seeking of a perfection of combination of thought, mind, use of ki, execution, and character that combine. This constant striving to improve, to grow, to become better in physical and mental attributes is a core concept.

After years of performing CORRECTLY any one technique you can argue you've perfected it. OK so have you properly used your Ki in this technique? You will know after a long enough time and with enough diligent practice that you are or aren't. Next, what mindset are you using? Are you experiencing no-mind, are you thinking of your schedule? Only you can know, but some masters have been able to determine if you are just by watching you. As you can see this piles up showing you that there are many ways you can improve.

As you improve your technique, the overall execution improves along with it. But does your character improve as well? Are you seeking to avoid violence? Are you seeking to test yourself by finding excuses to fight? All of these things are meant to meditate upon. If we are given the skills and ability to kill then we must by definition use our conscience in order to perform this skills. Without our superior minds and spirits/souls/etc to guide our actions we are merely beasts; Else we are thugs.

This also causes us to re-examine ourselves as we progress year after year of training. Are we teaching our students violence or self-defence? Do they understand the monumental responsibility of the consequences of their potential actions in fights? etc.

[cathal]

So it's like a type of meditation?

In a manner of speaking yes. Meditation is a big part of practicing Shotokan. We meditate before & after our training lessons, and learn about achieving no-mind as well. Look up "Mind Like the Moon" (Tsuki No Kokoro) and "Mind Like The Water" (Mizu No Kokuro) in order to learn a bit more if you're interested.

In addition there is a great deal of introspection. This introspection is done objectively so that we do not beat ourselves up when we analyze our own technique.

[cathal]

It's that level where they will magically understand what kata mean

I really like what you say here DaveB. There are Shotokan practitioners that genuinely think it takes decades to truly understand. Its also done in part as an effort to make the instructor seem esoteric, even mystical. But that is based on old training methods and outmoded (and incorrect) interpretations on Shotokan's philosophy. This is, IMHO, a sign of an instructor that does not truly understand and thus passes on the wrong thing. This person shouldn't be shunned but rather given the opportunity to understand what its really about.

Take at look at the book Five Years, One Kata by Bill Burger. He actually did Gojushiho a.k.a. Useishi for five years. I won't spoil it for you but I recommend it to anyone who is a serious Karate practitioner. He was able to learn a great deal about karate in general because of the unique approach he took.

[DaveB]

Cathal, my own training in Shotokan was superb and never a problem, my gripe came from training with a wider Shotokan community. From reading articles and books by practitioners.

Regarding the perfect punch, I'm not saying it is an expressed tenet of Shotokan but striving for perfect technique is part of the culture. Some dress it up in philosophy more than others but there's no confusion or misconception in what is write.

Ultimately you're attempting to make the "no true Shotokaner" argument, where your brand is the real way and the others either don't count or don't really exist. Well they do exist and they are as true and valid members of the Shotokan community as any. There may be less of them these days as a result of the kata application band wagon, but even when books like Burgars were being published every other week and website were springing up all over, there were still plenty who thought a basic wrist lock was something super advanced and that the only way to use the art was the way taught for tournaments.

5 years one kata was a great book and a good example of what karate can (and to me should) be, but it was neither the norm nor was it a historically representative approach of Shotokan (ie the mid 20th century style of Japanese karate).

Nor is any of the pseudo philosophy you espoused. If an individual wants to make that way of doing things the heart of their training that is their choice. That person should be under no illusion though, that entire way of viewing karate was an invention of Japanese karateka who while advocating decades of training had themselves no more than 10 - 15 years under their belts.

It was an invention designed to cover the lack of knowledge of what karate really was because they'd only been taught the surface form. It was a reason for people to keep training when there was nothing more to teach. Much as the bushido code was a means of keeping the relevance and distinction of a samurai class in an age where constant warring had ended.

Karate is a way of hitting people who have tried to hit you first. It can be other things, but if your assessment of your karate kungfu etc has elements that won't assist you in a fight (like balancing your Ki or other mysticisms) then you can be pretty sure they were bolted on by someone who really really needed a girlfriend.

Edited March 18, 2015 by DaveB

[DaveB]

Boxers manage to have whole careers, knocking out top notch athletes as they go, with punches they learned in the first month of their training, in the time being advocated as required tenure in a martial art to master the basics.

Who in their right mind would make a self defense system that took a decade plus to get good at? Someone with servants to fight for him maybe?

If you want to be a better person, volunteer at a charity. Help someone else, don't navel gaze while you punch.

Edited March 18, 2015 by DaveB