a weird pet peeve I have about martial arts

[hansenator]

No, there is nothing wrong with being modest. But when someone constantly insists or alludes to that fact that they are "modest," then it becomes a bit much. Some become so modest that they become indignant towards the idea of becoming a higher rank.

I'm reminded of one guy I know who brought up the point that the people who are the most skilled/experienced/competent tend to not talk about it as much. He then continued with "take myself for example". I had to wonder if he was actually listening to himself.

[chiliphil1]

No, there is nothing wrong with being modest. But when someone constantly insists or alludes to that fact that they are "modest," then it becomes a bit much. Some become so modest that they become indignant towards the idea of becoming a higher rank.

I'm reminded of one guy I know who brought up the point that the people who are the most skilled/experienced/competent tend to not talk about it as much. He then continued with "take myself for example". I had to wonder if he was actually listening to himself.

This is what I meant about modesty. Not the guy who walks around saying "look at me I am so modest" but rather the one who will never ever say "yep, I am really good, I can do all of those kicks better than them" To me true modesty is one who not only doesn't talk about how good they are but one who most others do not even realize how good they are.

Like the old Kung-fu masters who would only talk about how great their master was but never themselves.. Bruce Lee was one of those.

[chiliphil1]

Some TKD schools may advance through colored belt ranks quicker than some Karate styles, but they make up for that on the black belt end, where most TKD styles have set times between each black belt rank before becoming eligible to test. I would also add that there is so much more to TKD than sport. Its still a traditional Martial Art, with many of the same basic techniques as Karate styles. It does offer the added physical challenge of jumping and spinning techniques, yes, but proficiency in that area does not come without having good, solid foundations in basic techniques.

You are indeed correct and I did not mean to make it sound as though TKD was just a sport. I think what I was getting at was that from what I have seen most people who just want to do "karate" thinking it would be fun and all the kids who look at it like going to soccer practice seem to almost always be students of TKD. I think this has more to do with availability than anything because it seems that 90% of local schools are TKD. Now, with that said I do understand that things slow down at black belt, I think this is pretty common with all styles hence the high attrition rates of most schools however with what I have seen from the TKD schools I have witnessed they move up the gup ranks very quickly, something like 2 months between gradings which increases slightly the higher you get, at the 1st gup it's something like 6 months in between and then another 6 months to dan.

I am not trying to say anything is wrong with it but I think this is why they keep so many students, since there is always something to shoot for and you feel that you are accomplishing a lot because every 2 months you have a new belt. Whereas some traditional styles I have seen only have 3-4 belts which take a year or more in between each and this can cause burnout with those who are not fully dedicated.

[bushido_man96]

You are making valid points, chiliphil1. Many TKD schools have programs that they gear towards younger students. If our school didn't have a program for younger students, and the gym business that the school is run out of, then it probably wouldn't be around. We just don't have enough adult students. I wish we did, but we just don't, and I don't know how to fix that. So, many schools need those kids programs to keep the doors open for the few adults that take classes.

[RAM18]

Master is a terrible term, I agree.

My sensei makes us stand in a circle at the end of class in belt order. He has his Dan instructors one side but the other side of him is where the white belts stand. He does this as a reminder that we constantly and always learn!

As a Wado Ryu karateka based in the UK as far as I'm concerned there are 2 masters.

Hironori Ohtsuka - The founder on Wado Ryu

Tatsuo Suzuki - Founded first UK Wado school in 1965.

I don't mean that as an insult to any other hi ranking Wado people but what these two contributed to Wado Ryu is what puts them on that level for me.

[Kusotare]

My sensei makes us stand in a circle at the end of class in belt order. He has his Dan instructors one side but the other side of him is where the white belts stand. He does this as a reminder that we constantly and always learn!

I like that. It's a good reminder.

Masafumi Shiomitsu (9th Dan Wado-ryu) wears a pure white belt (not an old black belt that has turned white) - for much the same reasons.

As a Wado Ryu karateka based in the UK as far as I'm concerned there are 2 masters.

Hironori Ohtsuka - The founder on Wado Ryu

Tatsuo Suzuki - Founded first UK Wado school in 1965.

With the exception of possibly adding Toru Arakawa (JKF 9th Dan), I think I would agree with you.

Interestingly, all of the above would most likely prefer to be addressed as simply "Sensei".

IMO, that is the most important (and treasured) title of them all.

K.

[Spartacus Maximus]

The fixation on titles such as "master" or "grand master" is the result of Western culture's distortion an misinterpretation of foreign concepts that have no exact equivalent. One might refer to a highly skilled and notable martial artist as Master, but it is out of respect for achievements. Usually this person has passed on long ago.

In their native culture the titles are never used as a form of address. I have never ever heard an Okinawan or a Japanese call his martial arts instructor anything other than "sensei". I certainly never called mine "Hanshi" or " Kyoshi". Everywhere else as far as I have heard and observed, students call their instructor by the local term for "teacher".

In European systems, terms such as "master-at-arms" exist but students never called their instructors anything other than "Sir". With this in mind, insisting on titles they way some Western(mostly) dojos/clubs and groups do is very strange to me and seems very pompous.

[sensei8]

My sensei makes us stand in a circle at the end of class in belt order. He has his Dan instructors one side but the other side of him is where the white belts stand. He does this as a reminder that we constantly and always learn!

I like that. It's a good reminder.

Masafumi Shiomitsu (9th Dan Wado-ryu) wears a pure white belt (not an old black belt that has turned white) - for much the same reasons.

As a Wado Ryu karateka based in the UK as far as I'm concerned there are 2 masters.

Hironori Ohtsuka - The founder on Wado Ryu

Tatsuo Suzuki - Founded first UK Wado school in 1965.

With the exception of possibly adding Toru Arakawa (JKF 9th Dan), I think I would agree with you.

Interestingly, all of the above would most likely prefer to be addressed as simply "Sensei".

 

IMO, that is the most important (and treasured) title of them all.

K.

To the bold type above...

YES...a thousand times!!

[JohnASE]

Just an observation, not a judgment, but I believe most of the people I know in Demura's organization call him "Sensei", and most of the people in Kubota's organization call him "Soke".

As far as "Master" goes, yes, it does sound odd to me, but I figure it's just an English translation of whatever they use in Korean. No one asks me to call them that, but they do refer to each other that way. It doesn't bother me.

Some of our customers use their title to identify themselves, but not many. Only one person I can think of identifies himself by his title alone, but he has a distinctive voice and is the only one who calls himself "Kyoshi", so we know who he is.

My ex-girlfriend is a college professor, and in her circle, she said no one calls themselves Doctor, because it's kinda meaningless when they all have PhDs. I've met a few brand new PhDs who like to use it for fun at first, but I'd bet the novelty wears off pretty quickly. I feel like I've said this here before.

This reminds me of "The Big Bang Theory". "Doctor, doctor, doctor, mister." For those who don't know the TV show, of the four lead guys, three have PhDs and one has a masters degree, and he occasionally gets ribbed about it.

I wonder whether hanshis and kyoshis in the shihan kai treat the new shihans like scrubs.

[chiliphil1]

Just an observation, not a judgment, but I believe most of the people I know in Demura's organization call him "Sensei", and most of the people in Kubota's organization call him "Soke".

As far as "Master" goes, yes, it does sound odd to me, but I figure it's just an English translation of whatever they use in Korean. No one asks me to call them that, but they do refer to each other that way. It doesn't bother me.

Some of our customers use their title to identify themselves, but not many. Only one person I can think of identifies himself by his title alone, but he has a distinctive voice and is the only one who calls himself "Kyoshi", so we know who he is.

My ex-girlfriend is a college professor, and in her circle, she said no one calls themselves Doctor, because it's kinda meaningless when they all have PhDs. I've met a few brand new PhDs who like to use it for fun at first, but I'd bet the novelty wears off pretty quickly. I feel like I've said this here before.

This reminds me of "The Big Bang Theory". "Doctor, doctor, doctor, mister." For those who don't know the TV show, of the four lead guys, three have PhDs and one has a masters degree, and he occasionally gets ribbed about it.

I wonder whether hanshis and kyoshis in the shihan kai treat the new shihans like scrubs.

That made me think of that scene with Chevy Chase where he was pretending to be a doctor and he went into a room full of doctors and they all greeted each other with "doctor" So everyone was going around saying doctor, doctor, doctor.. it was in spies like us, here is the clip.