a weird pet peeve I have about martial arts

[sensei8]

I don't call anyone "master" in English, I call them their title in Japanese. My CI's title is Shuseki Shihan. His wife is Sei Shihan, and there's a Jun Shihan.

If it was in English, I wouldn't look at it as calling them my master, as in they're someone high and mighty, I'd call them master as a rank. Kind of like chess master or master chef, master instructor, and on and on.

If you feel you're kneeling down to someone who thinks he/she's a god and demands to be called your master, find another teacher. Or ask them in a respectful way about how they view being called master. It may clarify something for you.

This is the crux of it. People are blending two different words Master the noun and master the adjective. The former meaning someone who is in charge of something and the latter meaning someone who has acquired a high skill level in something. They're not interchangeable.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/master

Danielle, solid post. Because of my Christian beliefs, I automatically take offense to the Master label, and it might be in addition that when someone addresses a MAist as "Master" Smith, and then bow, I get offended by the gesture.

Having said that, and thinking over your post, I see where I've erred all these years. And it's been spoken well here regarding the Master title. Master Craftsman, Master Plumber, and so on and so forth. I'm fine in the context, yet, in the MA context the bowing before/after the word Master gets under my skin.

I understand the bowing in the MA. I understand the title Master in the MA. Yet, putting them together, well, that was getting under my skin. It was my problem, and now, I'm seeing it in a different context. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?!!

Thanks, Danielle, as well as those KF members who've tried to tell me just what Danielle said here.

[JR 137]

I don't call anyone "master" in English, I call them their title in Japanese. My CI's title is Shuseki Shihan. His wife is Sei Shihan, and there's a Jun Shihan.

If it was in English, I wouldn't look at it as calling them my master, as in they're someone high and mighty, I'd call them master as a rank. Kind of like chess master or master chef, master instructor, and on and on.

If you feel you're kneeling down to someone who thinks he/she's a god and demands to be called your master, find another teacher. Or ask them in a respectful way about how they view being called master. It may clarify something for you.

This is the crux of it. People are blending two different words Master the noun and master the adjective. The former meaning someone who is in charge of something and the latter meaning someone who has acquired a high skill level in something. They're not interchangeable.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/master

Exactly what I meant, yet so much more articulate.

Think of master as a short form of master instructor, and bowing as a different way of shaking hands, and it all makes sense.

Think of master as king/ruler/slave owner/whatever other oppressor, and it makes no sense, especially while kneeling and bowing.

Just the way I see it. Interestingly, I never viewed the title master in MA as anything other than the adjective. I've also never called anyone master in English, so maybe that skews my vision of it. It's always been "Osu Shihan," not "Yes, Master."

[JR 137]

Along the same lines, do people have a problem with calling a priest father? Is it really much different than what's being discussed here?

[Spodo Komodo]

Because of my Christian beliefs, I automatically take offense to the Master label, and it might be in addition that when someone addresses a MAist as "Master" Smith, and then bow, I get offended by the gesture.

I think that is more of a pond difference than a Christian thing. The various churches, seminaries, theological colleges and monasteries in Europe are brimful of masters/maitres/meisters, generally used as a title rather than any indication of wisdom, knowledge or mastery of anything in particular. I have noticed American theological students bristling when told to bow/curtsey and use the correct title on occasions. On the other hand many European students don't like the terms American churches use and openly quibble when a 25 year old person states he is a church elder or a pastor (which still implies he herds sheep here). Sometimes you just have to accept that there are minor differences in culture and just get on with what is expected by everyone else around you. When in Rome and all that.

[sensei8]

Yeah, like I stated earlier, the problem is mine totally. I just need to learn to address people by their proper titles no matter their field. I'm not seeing the forest because of the trees!!

On more reason why I've had a hard time with the Master title is that, I'm a firm believer that how can someone master anything when we humans are so fallible; we're not perfect.

Again, the problem is mine totally, and I need to worry about things that are much more important than the word "Master"!!

[JR 137]

Yeah, like I stated earlier, the problem is mine totally. I just need to learn to address people by their proper titles no matter their field. I'm not seeing the forest because of the trees!!

On more reason why I've had a hard time with the Master title is that, I'm a firm believer that how can someone master anything when we humans are so fallible; we're not perfect.

Again, the problem is mine totally, and I need to worry about things that are much more important than the word "Master"!!

I agree with how can anyone truly master something that's complex. IMO it's not that they've mastered it completely; they've mastered it relative to most others.

[sensei8]

Yeah, like I stated earlier, the problem is mine totally. I just need to learn to address people by their proper titles no matter their field. I'm not seeing the forest because of the trees!!

On more reason why I've had a hard time with the Master title is that, I'm a firm believer that how can someone master anything when we humans are so fallible; we're not perfect.

Again, the problem is mine totally, and I need to worry about things that are much more important than the word "Master"!!

I agree with how can anyone truly master something that's complex. IMO it's not that they've mastered it completely; they've mastered it relative to most others.

Solid post; put quite concisely!!

[ShotokanMaster]

I have a instructor whose a 10 degree i called him Sifu you dont have to call him grand master or master if you dont want to but since my sifu deserves it i call im GM or senior grandmaster or just Sifu