a weird pet peeve I have about martial arts

[cathal]

Cathal, my own training in Shotokan was superb and never a problem, my gripe came from training with a wider Shotokan community. From reading articles and books by practitioners.

Regarding the perfect punch, I'm not saying it is an expressed tenner of Shotokan but striving for perfect technique is part of the culture. Some dress it up in philosophy more than others but there's no confusion or misconception in what is write.

I'm very glad to hear your training wasn't as bad as I was imagining. You and I agree on the point about culture.

Ultimately you're attempting to make the "no true Shotokaner" argument, where your brand is the real way and the others either don't count or don't really exist. Well they do exist and they are as true and valid members of the Shotokan community as any. There may be less of them these days as a result of the kata application band wagon, but even when books like Burgars were being published every other week and website were springing up all over, there were still plenty who thought a basic wrist lock was something super advanced and that the only way to use the art was the way taught for tournaments.

5 years one kata was a great book and a good example of what karate can (and to me should) be, but it was neither the norm nor was it a historically representative approach of Shotokan (ie the mid 20th century style of Japanese karate).

Nor is any of the pseudo philosophy you espoused. If an individual wants to make that way of doing things the heart of their training that is their choice. That person should be under no illusion though, that entire way of viewing karate was an invention of Japanese karateka who while advocating decades of training had themselves no more than 10 - 15 years under their belts.

It was an invention designed to cover the lack of knowledge of what karate really was because they'd only been taught the surface form. It was a reason for people to keep training when there was nothing more to teach. Much as the bushido code was a means of keeping the relevance and distinction of a samurai class in an age where constant warring had ended.

I am surprised you feel I was touting a brand. Or that mine was the only way. If that's what you took from my posts it is incorrect. I neither attempted to soapbox my training nor state it was the only way to go. At no point did I attempt to deny that kind of shotokan training existed. I explained if someone was teaching it in that manner they were incorrect.

I agree with you on the philosophy of shotokan with respect to techniques. It is very much part of Japanese culture as I understand it to study for decades as part of a meditative journey to perfection. I do not espouse this philosophy, its impossible for me to do so as I don't agree with all of it. I pass on the philosophy and allow anyone to make their own decisions about it. But I do so objectively in a respectful way.

In my previous posts I was operating with the belief you'd had at least a few years of training and/or exposure to Shotokan and was attempting to educate and illuminate certain aspects. Now that I'm aware you've trained in it--and I do believe diligently for a long while at this point--further conversations between us will be different. Please accept my apology if you've felt insulted as a result of my assumption.

Karate is a way of hitting people who have tried to hit you first. It can be other things, but if your assessment of your karate kungfu etc has elements that won't assist you in a fight (like balancing your Ki or other mysticisms) then you can be pretty sure they were bolted on by someone who really really needed a girlfriend.

Now this I wholeheartedly agree upon. Even made my laugh a bit. Of course this is more toward the culture of Japan back in the day of Shotokan's early origins, and its impressive its stuck with the style for as long as it has. I agree Karate should be re-assessed for the modern world by the current and next generations, yet I also believe we shouldn't ignore its operative philosophy. Where there was wisdom before, we can interpret a new wisdom.

[DaveB]

If I have misunderstood you I apologise, but it read like you were suggesting that your philosophical description was the right one, when really they are all as unnecessary and disingenuous as each other.

[cathal]

I respect your opinion and am glad you are expressing it. It's one of the reasons I stayed with MA.

[Luther unleashed]

The other side to this coin is for some guys like me it's very normal because we use it so much. If I refered to my instructor as anything but master so and so it would feel weird. I also look at it as a rank thing and similar to education. I.E... A "masters" degree! I don't hold master rank though but if I did I wouldn't care personally, I just don't have a problem calling somebody else this. In korean martial arts anyways this is very common. My kids call me instructor Lex, or Mr Lex. This is very casual and informal but I'm ok with it. I control a class like you think I am strict and I'm master blahblah, so I'm ok with a name that doesn't demand a certain level of respect.

[bushido_man96]

The other side to this coin is for some guys like me it's very normal because we use it so much. If I refered to my instructor as anything but master so and so it would feel weird. I also look at it as a rank thing and similar to education. I.E... A "masters" degree! I don't hold master rank though but if I did I wouldn't care personally, I just don't have a problem calling somebody else this. In korean martial arts anyways this is very common. My kids call me instructor Lex, or Mr Lex. This is very casual and informal but I'm ok with it. I control a class like you think I am strict and I'm master blahblah, so I'm ok with a name that doesn't demand a certain level of respect.

Personally, I try to avoid the titles myself, Mr. is just fine with me. I also try to avoid the title of Mr. even outside of the class setting.

[Luther unleashed]

The other side to this coin is for some guys like me it's very normal because we use it so much. If I refered to my instructor as anything but master so and so it would feel weird. I also look at it as a rank thing and similar to education. I.E... A "masters" degree! I don't hold master rank though but if I did I wouldn't care personally, I just don't have a problem calling somebody else this. In korean martial arts anyways this is very common. My kids call me instructor Lex, or Mr Lex. This is very casual and informal but I'm ok with it. I control a class like you think I am strict and I'm master blahblah, so I'm ok with a name that doesn't demand a certain level of respect.

Personally, I try to avoid the titles myself, Mr. is just fine with me. I also try to avoid the title of Mr. even outside of the class setting.

I hear you, also keep in mind because I don't always clarify in every post but I teach almost all children. When I was 17 years old I dreamed of running my own place as I was training and I always envisioned myself teaching adults. I just can't seem to get a salad adult program going at the recreation center, The previous program was there nine years and also let it go after a few years so I guess that should say something about my location. But, my point is that when I say they referred to me as Mr. Lex, because it is children we are talking about part of that is simply respect for an adult, and not a title as a martial artist.

[sensei8]

How the MAist ACTS as a "Master"/"Grandmaster"/ETC, speaks in volumes; volumes to hard to ignore, good or bad.

I believe, that those who have "Titles", no matter what they might be, and for those who aren't swelled in their heads because they have a "Title", that they deserve our respect because of what it took for them to reach/achieve said "Title", i.e., time on the floor, and things like that.

Grandmaster Young Ik Suh comes to my mind; an awesome TKD practitioner, that I've ever seen. Humble on and off the floor, but certainly, deadly if need be!! I only spent one high school year on his floor, and it was an honor to have done so; it was my loss, that I left his dojang!! Imho, he deserves my respect, and I'd have no problem addressing him as Grandmaster, because, he was. Imagine that...a Shindokan Karateka praising an TKDist...but again, it's easy to imagine if you knew him. My own Sensei, and our Soke, had tremendous respect for GM Suh!!

Those that demand respect because they've a "Title", can hold their breath until we do...at least then, they'll have the record for one holding their breath!!

[IcemanSK]

I try not to trip over titles too much with MA. I go by Mr. with my students, but belong an org. where titles are very important. My GM has never referred to me by my first name, but always by a title. (Mr. then, master). I wish she'd call me by my first name, because it would feel (to me) a closeness as her student. But, to her, calling me by my title is a form of respect.

I went to our org.'s big tournament last weekend. My rank & title are well known to all because of insignia we wear at org. events. I met some of my friend's students. One was quite shy & very deferential to even lower rank & children. The look on her face when I told her to call me by my first name was priceless. There are times for titles and there are times to makes connections.

I have no trouble calling anyone what they prefer to be called. The guy I with tested with last week (same age & rank) has both a "master" title & is a medical doctor. We call each other by our first names off the matt. That makes sense to me.

[Melau]

The most inspirational and advanced martial artists that I've had the pleasure to meet, didn't really care about title. Some were even perfectly fine with just being adressed by their first name. Some were registered in the national budo hall of fame in recent years, some were promoted to Hachi-dan. But always they were approachable, kind, open for discussion and different points of view.

Even though I've been instructing Karate for the past 8 years (and training for 21), I've never asked students to call me 'sensei' or the like. Somehow it doesn't really feel comfortable, for I'm still a student of the art. I still train, learn and practise, just like I've always done ever since a white belt. In no way I have the idea that I have 'mastered' even the most basic punches, there is always room for improvement, and I still train the basics with enthusiasm.

If someone wants to be called 'master' or 'grandmaster', that's fine. A title doesn't make a teacher or martial artists. A teacher or martial artist can deserve or have a title, no doubt. But that is not really what a martial artist should strife for, it's not what MA is about in my opinion.

[Wasp]

I probably wouldn't train at a place which forced me to call someone 'sensei' or 'master' instead of a regular name. You're still the same person whether you'll train (with) me or not, and I already respect you on an equals-basis.