Kakidi/Kakete/Kakie Training

[Wastelander]

Hello everyone,

Several people here on KF have mentioned that they do some form of kakidi/kakete/kakie (hooked/crossed hands) training at their dojo. It occurs to me that we've never really had a thorough discussion about that type of training, though. I figured it would be an interesting topic, if we could get some valuable discussion going on. This will be a long post, in order to provide the (what I feel to be) necessary background information, so please bear with me!

For those who are unfamiliar, a quick Google search of "kakie" will provide you with a variety of examples of the type of training I'm talking about. Kakete is simply another word for it, and kakidi is the Uchinaguchi (Okinawan language) pronunciation of kakete. Basically, you and a partner get into closed-face stances (usually) and cross your lead arms at the wrists, and then go through a variety of exercises for pushing, pulling, resisting, and redirecting.

I think most people probably associate this type of training with Naha-Te styles. This is fair, since Goju-Ryu folks seem to have preserved this training method more widely than other styles. Still, I know it exists in Shuri-Te and Tomari-Te styles, too. We practice some of these types of drills in my dojo, but not as frequently as some of my Goju-Ryu friends. Lately, though, I've been on a bit of a kakidi kick, which has been partially spurred on by an increase in its popularity within a karate study group I am a part of.

So, we know that people practice this type of training, but what they do with it is less consistent. Some people just do the back-and-forth pushing, some people do very flowing movements similar to Taiji pushing hands, some do lots of joint locks, some do lots of strikes, some cross arms on the inside while others cross on the outside, etc. There are so many variations that it's hard to keep track of them all!

What I would like to know is, for the people here on KF who practice some form of kakidi/kakete/kakie, how and why do you do it? Can you explain (or even share video) some of the drills that you practice? Do you have a particular focus on what you are developing when you are doing this type of training?

[sensei8]

Great topic!!

In Shindokan, our emphasis is always toward our close range tactics, as this includes our brand of Tuite. Our pushing hand drills help increase immediate awareness, thereby, increasing our sensitivity to our opponents reactions and the like.

All Kakie drills begin with a crossed arm position, in Shindokan, and remain that way until ones defense is penetrated through "slipping" through to desired target. To us, Kakie can be quite very soft and yielding in nature...to feel it...to absorb it...then to manipulate it through the softness of positions.

Our drills aren't, in nature, repetitive in going back and forth. It's essential to deflect blows with very little movement by reflecting the posture itself through the center line by controlling it.

We also believe that Kakie teaches us to depend on sensory input, and not in the visual. Sometimes one can be just too close to see what's happening, hence, the eyes can deceive, but the sensory inputs know for sure. Therefore, staying in contact is important to the sensory interpretations.

Reactions are dependent on their being no gaps within the close ranges within space management. Kakie, allows no reactionary gaps to confuse and/or lie to the fooled senses.

One of our most vital tools for training Kakie is the WC Wooden Dummy! It'll expose mistakes in your movements and transitions quickly, and without any reservation.

Please feel free to ask any questions, etc.; hopefully I can help.

[wildbourgman]

I think we call this a "flow drill" in my Shorin class. It's mainly for higher ranking students in my class using tuite.

[bushido_man96]

I've experienced kakie with sensei8, and I think it has merits. I haven't really done it since, but, I have done some drills very similar to the idea of it, but from different start points, so to speak.

One example is what we used to do in Combat Hapkido when we would work trapping drills. We would do straight line hi/low drills, where the hand is thrust straight out as a strike, and the other thrusts the hand straight towards it to defend, at the wrists, while using head movement for defense as well. There are also some circular attack and flow versions, shown here:

Its a brush/trap/strike drill, and it can be done with flowing back and forth with the partner, so both get lots of reps. It can also be fairly free-flowing, making your defenses in various portions of the movements.

My old DT partner that uses the Close Quarters Combatives system also has a drill similar to that in it, called the block/pass/pin drill:

It can be done with straight attacks or circular attacks, and you can do "inserts" at any point along the chain as counters.

Those are a few different ideas of how I've used the drill.

[Mark B]

I use Kakie frequently in my dojo, exercises driven by various push hand options are present on my syllabus from the first level.

As I've been studying Naihanchi for many years I began to consider the similarities between some of the principles demonstrated in the kata and the Wing Chun system in particular , which places great emphasis on close quarter tactile exercises. A couple of years ago I invited a very pragmatic Wing Chun instructor to teach a session of his core principles at my dojo which confirmed the close link between Naihanchi and Southern Chinese methods, it also highlighted the value of push hands in their various guises. I'd been using kakie for some time before the Wing Chun session , particularly as a way of shortening the range at seminars (people who are unused to close quarters unwittingly revert to a range with which they are comfortable ) but since the Wing Chun session I use the training aide more and more.

Kakie is an excellent medium for teaching the student timing , and how energy "feels", all in a sterile drill based setting.

Kakie then allows the student to freely understand how the Bunkai of kata should be correctly viewed, understood and applied - I strongly disagree with this popular, saturating market of "moves for this" and "moves for that". Kakie allows a more intuitive approach to karate, less robotic and "pre arranged".

The final stage of kakie is through proper role play with an aggressive Uke to then learn where Kakie fits into violence in the "real world".

Kakie is an invaluable training aide

[sensei8]

I use Kakie frequently in my dojo, exercises driven by various push hand options are present on my syllabus from the first level.

As I've been studying Naihanchi for many years I began to consider the similarities between some of the principles demonstrated in the kata and the Wing Chun system in particular , which places great emphasis on close quarter tactile exercises. A couple of years ago I invited a very pragmatic Wing Chun instructor to teach a session of his core principles at my dojo which confirmed the close link between Naihanchi and Southern Chinese methods, it also highlighted the value of push hands in their various guises. I'd been using kakie for some time before the Wing Chun session , particularly as a way of shortening the range at seminars (people who are unused to close quarters unwittingly revert to a range with which they are comfortable ) but since the Wing Chun session I use the training aide more and more.

Kakie is an excellent medium for teaching the student timing , and how energy "feels", all in a sterile drill based setting.

Kakie then allows the student to freely understand how the Bunkai of kata should be correctly viewed, understood and applied - I strongly disagree with this popular, saturating market of "moves for this" and "moves for that". Kakie allows a more intuitive approach to karate, less robotic and "pre arranged".

The final stage of kakie is through proper role play with an aggressive Uke to then learn where Kakie fits into violence in the "real world".

Kakie is an invaluable training aide

Solid post!!

[Wastelander]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!

We use quite a bit of tuidi (seizing hand) techniques in our dojo, so we certainly work at close range a lot. That said, we don't use kakidi/kakete/kakie all that often--maybe once or twice a month. The majority of our tactile sensitivity drills are more ballistic, like the ones bushido_man96 linked to. Personally, though, I have been working on developing my tactile sensitivity in a variety of other ways, using both equipment and partners:

While I never had a problem using our kata applications prior to starting this kind of supplemental training, I have certainly seen improvement because of it. Just last week, I had a very experienced (40+ years of training) partner comment that my locks had gotten much smoother. I think the more I work on it, the more I will see improvement.

In addition, as I think Mark B alluded to, the kakidi position is an excellent platform for learning the concepts of a technique, and how to apply it by feel. This is, in my opinion, something that is very important. I've seen people learn all kinds of great, old school karate techniques, and then they can never find a way to fit them into live training. I think the reason for that is their lack of ability to "feel" the technique.

I will say that I don't have any problems with kata applications that are based solely on realistic attacks, in the vein of "moves for this" and "moves for that." If they are drilled thoroughly and practiced in an alive manner, I think they can work quite well. I've met quite a few karateka who practice this way, and have had to use it in real life, and it worked just fine. I do think that this approach is much more limited, however, than developing a "feel" for the technique.

[sensei8]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!

We use quite a bit of tuidi (seizing hand) techniques in our dojo, so we certainly work at close range a lot. That said, we don't use kakidi/kakete/kakie all that often--maybe once or twice a month. The majority of our tactile sensitivity drills are more ballistic, like the ones bushido_man96 linked to. Personally, though, I have been working on developing my tactile sensitivity in a variety of other ways, using both equipment and partners:

While I never had a problem using our kata applications prior to starting this kind of supplemental training, I have certainly seen improvement because of it. Just last week, I had a very experienced (40+ years of training) partner comment that my locks had gotten much smoother. I think the more I work on it, the more I will see improvement.

In addition, as I think Mark B alluded to, the kakidi position is an excellent platform for learning the concepts of a technique, and how to apply it by feel. This is, in my opinion, something that is very important. I've seen people learn all kinds of great, old school karate techniques, and then they can never find a way to fit them into live training. I think the reason for that is their lack of ability to "feel" the technique.

I will say that I don't have any problems with kata applications that are based solely on realistic attacks, in the vein of "moves for this" and "moves for that." If they are drilled thoroughly and practiced in an alive manner, I think they can work quite well. I've met quite a few karateka who practice this way, and have had to use it in real life, and it worked just fine. I do think that this approach is much more limited, however, than developing a "feel" for the technique.

Solid post!! Nicely done video's! We do very similar drills as well!!

Great conversations/discussions, all; I've enjoyed them!!

[Mark B]

Hi all

Tuidi certainly blends nicely with Kakie , as it should - they compliment each other .

I can't agree with the "Bunkai moves" - and believe me I've had enough live experience "on tbe street". I've also had a good few years of Bunkai practice and study which did indeed begin, like most novices at kata application , with learning moves for each element of the form. I agree there are specific examples in kata, locks / takedowns for example , that could be viewed as "moves that work" but the majority of the applications of kata are delivered in response to the energy received through punches, pushing and shoving before a type of grappling is undertaken, this is the nature of violence with its unpredictability and constant shifting of energy and intent.

If the assailant doesn't know what he's gonna do then how can I know.

So I set up for a left push and right punch and- and he grabs and head butts me.

My approach allows me to not worry about what he might do as it's all the same to me - energy. The response WILL BE a "move" from kata I study (in great depth), however it's intuitive and instinctive, NOT a predetermined move for specifics.

As I've written elsewhere , at my seminars I always invite one of the guys in attendance to instigate a random attack, with as good an energy as safety will allow - there's no way I'd do that if my best hope was to second guess the attack

For me the practice of Kakie - Te and the other drills that compliment it completely reinvigorated the Bunkai of kata which I'd spent many years practicing, whilst always feeling something was "missing" , based on my "real" experiences.

A good thread this one

[sensei8]

Imho...

Let's for just a moment forget about any type of Bunkai and just concentrate on the techniques. Now that the forest is out of the way, hopefully, one can begin to see the trees much more clearly.

Techniques, individual techniques, are these trees. Kata has its merits, Bunkai has its merits, but when all of the superficial is stripped away, the only thing of the tree that's left is the techniques themselves.

What works and what doesn't work is a statement of building false securities in the practitoners, especially with those beginners. When meeting with an assailant, I don't execute something out of a kata, I execute a technique(s), but in addition, I don't think about the technique, I respond automatically without reservation and/or hesitation.

If one is always worried about which technique to execute from a learnt kata, and the applications possible, the fight, imho, is already lost. One doesn't worry about stance, posture, shifting, and the like because, in time, and hopefully, the other principles, including the execution of techniques are automatic.

Study your opponent...Study yourself...make a plan...carry it out!! FORGET about which Bunkai from which Kata, just respond accordingly, and make necessary changes appropriately. If you won't, trust me, your opponent will, and without your permission.

It is good, imho, for a student, no matter the level, to explore beyond what's ever been taught by ones Sensei/Instructor/Etc. because they're suppose to build the foundation for which you can begin to build upon.

With experience, it's natural to question Bunkai and Kakie and Tuite and this and that because once the foundation has been set, discoveries can't exist if ones unwilling to question everything; the proof is in the pudding!!

Taste and see!!

I believe that the founders of the many karate principles and the like created effectiveness within their techniques, and if something doesn't work, then the fault lies within the practitioner, and the only way to fix it, is to train in it until said technique(s) are more effective. Yet, the word "works" builds false securities, and that shouldn't be in ones vocabulary UNTIL it's effective. Even then, things happen where techniques just weren't effective, if only for that one moment.

Drill the techniques first, then explore the Bunkai and the like, but the technique is what will end the attack because all that one knows and drills and the like will be for not if the technique(s) aren't effective because one was trying to get the contents of some kata to "work"!!

When you tie your shoe laces...do you think about it or do you just do it?

Ok...rant over!! Sorry!