Interesting situation at blackbelt

[Spartacus Maximus]

After a while boredom outweighs any outside motivation to continue. At a certain point the motivation to continue training must come from within and not be attached to superficial things. People forget or dont understand that repetitiveness and tedium are inherent parts of martial arts.

Out of all the Dan level student active when I reached shodan, I am one of 3 out of 25 still training. Nobody but the most dedicated, nay, obsessively determined people are willing to continue long after there are no new belts to gain or new kata to learn.

How many would never start if they were told that they were expected to learn and practise only basic techniques for an entire year? Nothing but the basics. Every day. For hours.

[RAM18]

Thanks for all the responses! Makes a lot of sense.

The people moving on are now friends so i will still see them which is great. There are some positives out of it as this has made me more committed to my training than ever before and I'm approaching my 1st dan with much more of an open mind.

What Kusotare said about the Wado Ryu syllabus being narrow i have heard before and do appreciate. I choose the school before the style but perfection of fewer techniques doesn't overly concern me but i can see why others could get bored.

[Melau]

It is true that many see Shodan as an endpoint rather than a starting point. There is so much yet to discover and train, reaching Shodan only shows that you've mastered the basics IMHO. I believe that you are never 'done' or 'finished' in karate or any MA.

[ninjanurse]

I agree with most of the comments here-it is tough these days to keep students past Shodan because they do see it as an end rather than a beginning. To combat this I have changed the way I approach testing after Shodan.

I allow my Black Belts to "design" their own testing curriculum within certain guidelines (core curriculum is mandatory). That way they can specialize in the areas that they are most interested in (weapons, kata, jujitsu,teaching, etc.). The mandatory curriculum has a set number of points and then they get to choose "electives" worth various points-as long as they accumulate enough total points they will be allowed to test for their next Dan ranking.

Electives include: "Heirloom" Kata, tournaments, seminars (with required review), Cross training in another style, pursuing ranking in our jujitsu program, Instructor Training & Teaching, research, etc.

[cheesefrysamurai]

A fitting anecdote: I happened to be in Japan (training camp) on my 10th Karate anniversary exactly. I mentioned this to one of the senior instructors (50+ year experience) after he had taught me the last Kata in Goju Ryu (Suparimpai). He smiled and said: Good. Now you can start Karate.

I am not making this up. Funny thing is, it was so true.

Exactly- with every different rank, there is a complete new level of subtlety involved and complexity Gekisai dai ichi is very different for different ranks. There's an evolution for sure!!!!

BUT not all systems are created equal. Some systems do have less of the inner art, less to master. There is not ONE technique, strike , stance, or kata that doesn't evolve. You master the form of the strike, then the fluidity, all the time working on the power, incorporating posture, and stance then after many years, your technique evolves.

It's not as straight forward as these people think.

But maybe we are lucky we chose a system with such an in depth understanding

[DWx]

Advanced Karate training is a hot topic for me....I can ramble on and on...so excuse the length of my post....As the previous posters mentioned already, several reasons could be the cause for experienced students to leave a club. I can think of the following:

1. Goal (i.e., black belt) achieved: moving on to something else.

What to do: Not much to be done, except to respect their decision.

2. Life priorities change: Maybe the age of 1st - 3rd Dan coincides with people completing their studies, moving up their job ladder, or starting a family. All these changes leave less time for Karate.

What to do: Respect their decision. Keep in touch, their life may change again and allow a return to Karate later.

3. Knowledge exceeds skill: At some point (often between Shodan and Nidan) a Karateka's knowledge advances faster than his/her physical skill level. As a new Shodan one might be proud (but ignorant). Then, continuing the training, one's knowledge expands and one notices all those tiny mistakes everywhere. It feels like moving backwards for a while. That can be quite frustrating.

What to do: Sensei to explain the situation. Student to stick to it. Work through this phase, realize one's progress, compare to other "advanced beginners" and keep practicing!

4. Not enough peers at comparable level: leading to lack of challenge, frustration and then boredom. Mixed classes (beginners and black belts are not enough).

 

What to do: Talk with instructor about advanced classes (Black belt only). Find additional and/or new club offering advance classes. Go to seminars inside and outside of your organization.. if they don't let you do that: Change club immediately!

 

 

 

5. Instructor only fit to teach Kyu-level Karate: He/she could be excellent at teaching basics (I know I am not!). Dan-level Karate (as Wastlander pointed out exactly) should be different: More individual, advanced concepts!

What to do: Student: Time to think & study yourself. It is actually rare to find an instructor who can really guide advanced Dan students. Seek one that can! Instructors should conduct advanced classes (I mean black belts only!). Also, instructors should admit their limits, let students progress with other teachers if ready. The teachers biggest achievement is a student who surpasses him/her!

Whilst I think most recognize shodan as the beginning of training, I think GojuRyu's points 4 and 5 above can be very important factors which we shouldn't neglect. For as many cases where we say it was the student's only goal to reach blackbelt, I think the same can be said of instructors; their only goal is to get the student to blackbelt and after that they are effectively left to their own devices because the instructor doesn't know how to teach them. Subsequently the student has to take on a much greater responsibility for furthering their own training and this can be quite a culture shock moving from the very strict and guided path through the colour belts.

If it takes a student on average 4 years to get to blackbelt, that's 4 years of very set and guided study. Things are broken down into smaller steps (kyu ranks), there is a set curriculum to follow and criteria for each grade. Even if a student only grades every 6 months, they will have a focus and have a sense of progression.. When they hit shodan, suddenly nidan seems a very long way off and unless they (or their instructor) start making short term goals in order to provide some focus its all too easy to feel like you haven't made any progress over the last however many months.

[mal103]

As beginners we are helped every step but as we progress then the responsibility should be gradually placed on the student, after Shodan then more emphasis is placed on the student to push themselves - unfortunately not everyone can deal with this, or wants to. Some just still want to turn up and train without thinking too much.

A lot of how these attitudes are dealt with by the instructor will reflect on if they keep training. Also as pointed out the Sensei has no experience or time to deal with Shodan/Nidan training. Most clubs are mixed and haven't the time, some just don't have the knowledge.

I've seen many Shodans give up for all of the reasons above.

From my personal journey I was teaching as part of a larger club but realised the limitations on the senior instructor and then the dodgey dealings, I split and run my clubs myself but have a small enough ego to realise my own limitations so now train as much as I teach with 3 local clubs.

One of the clubs where I train has managed to keep the majority of it's Black belts so it can be done.

[ShoriKid]

I think the relatively low number of black belt/advanced partners to train with can play heavily into the feeling that there isn't much to do once you've gotten your shodan. True, up until that point you are learning a lot of individual techniques and katas over the course of a few months. Beyond black belt, that does become a smaller number over a longer period. But, when you are one of a handful of people, getting very little instruction time, on very little material, it can be very frustrating.

There is also a lot of time spent paying attention to the lower belts, moving them along. Unless your school is very unusual, those lower belts vastly out number the black belts. That means the instructors time is mostly spent with those lower belts. Now, part of it is that is letting the higher belts learn to guide themselves. But, it is hard to get them the time and attention they need to help move them along. In addition, a lot of instructors just don't have that much to impart to black belts, because they didn't get that much themselves. It is a compound problem, with more than a single facet contributing to what is going on. Add to that all of the social pressures that most people just hitting black belt experience, being mostly younger and not yet settled in life when they start training. I do know I was more than a little happy one night when we had 5 black belts in our small club! Instant black belt class. The lower belts present just had to buckle up and hang on for the ride.

[Hawkmoon]

I love this post it worth reposting it hits so many bulls eyes!

....several reasons could be the cause for experienced students to leave a club. I can think of the following:

1. Goal (i.e., black belt) achieved: moving on to something else.

What to do: Not much to be done, except to respect their decision.

An action I see in clubs all around. The BB is seen as the final goal and not the first step!

We say Black Belt, we write BB, but its Shodan (Sho-Dan) - "First Grade",not master not teacher, FIRST grade.

"but its only a word" ... nah! its a symbol and we are not seeing it or its real meaning at all in any way!

2. Life priorities change: Maybe the age of 1st - 3rd Dan coincides with people completing their studies, moving up their job ladder, or starting a family. All these changes leave less time for Karate.

What to do: Respect their decision. Keep in touch, their life may change again and allow a return to Karate later.

Which is what happened with me, I changed jobs, started a family and moved home. Now I've a happy family nice job, and I'm back in training!

3. Knowledge exceeds skill: At some point (often between Shodan and Nidan) a Karateka's knowledge advances faster than his/her physical skill level. As a new Shodan one might be proud (but ignorant). Then, continuing the training, one's knowledge expands and one notices all those tiny mistakes everywhere. It feels like moving backwards for a while. That can be quite frustrating.

What to do: Sensei to explain the situation. Student to stick to it. Work through this phase, realize one's progress, compare to other "advanced beginners" and keep practicing!

hmm ... agree and see point 1.

4. Not enough peers at comparable level: leading to lack of challenge, frustration and then boredom. Mixed classes (beginners and black belts are not enough).

What to do: Talk with instructor about advanced classes (Black belt only). Find additional and/or new club offering advance classes. Go to seminars inside and outside of your organization.. if they don't let you do that: Change club immediately!

The joker in me wants to say "There can be only one", master, so seeking better is a constant journey, stand up, stand strong, keep striving for higher and better levels!

5. Instructor only fit to teach Kyu-level Karate: He/she could be excellent at teaching basics (I know I am not!). Dan-level Karate (as Wastlander pointed out exactly) should be different: More individual, advanced concepts!

What to do: Student: Time to think & study yourself. It is actually rare to find an instructor who can really guide advanced Dan students. Seek one that can! Instructors should conduct advanced classes (I mean black belts only!). Also, instructors should admit their limits, let students progress with other teachers if ready. The teachers biggest achievement is a student who surpasses him/her!

Yup and yup.

I truly do not see any harm in expanding knowledge and testing yourself with cross training.

A discussion else where in this forum touches on cross training as a means of bettering yourself and the best part is you don't have to look to another MA to train to achieve this!