Ryu Kyu Island Lineage help

[Tode]

I have been doing a lot of research lately and I'm finally getting closer to the information I'm Looking for. Funikoshi along with the other masters of Okinawan arts, all designed katas that were originally based on Kung Fu forms. Can anyone help me fill in the blanks on the List bellow or possibly have any corrections? I'm trying to draw a lineage back to the original martial arts that influence All the Ryu Kyu island martial arts. If you could correct, fill in, or help me out down bellow it would be much appreciated.

Also If you have some interesting information about the Ryu Arts or Shotokan and their lineage through the Fujian province of china Please post it. I have dated Funikoshi all the way back to Chuan Fa but I cant find which shaolin monk taught Kusanku. There is absolutely nothing before Kusanku aka Kwang Shang Fu (1660?-1762).

Supposedly:

Heian Shodan -

Heian Nidan -

Heian Sandan -

Heian Yondan -

Heian Godan -

Tekki Shodan - Tiger Style

Tekki Nidan - Tiger Style

Tekki Sandan - Tiger Style

Bassai Dai -

Bassai Sho -

Kanku Dai

Kanku Sho

Enpi or Empi

Jion - shaolin roots

Gankaku - White Crane

Hangetsu - White Crane

Jitte - shaolin roots

Chinte - White Crane

Sochin

Meikyo White Crane

Jiin

Gojushiho Dai

Gojushiho Sho

Nijushiho - Dragon Stance

Wankan

Unsu - Dragon Stance

[Harkon72]

I admire your attempt, and I wish you the best of luck. What you are looking for is very difficult to find. Categorising the origin of Karate Kata is a mammoth task. Many books of theory exist on the subject with a spectrum of ideas, but I'll give you my best guess. Okinawan Karate was derived from many roots on the Chinese main land and later Japan itself. The two prominent schools were Naha-Te and Shuri-Te. Both gained much influence from the Shaolin tradition, and you are correct, the classical animal forms can be seen in modern karate kata. But like most of these things, it's not quite that simple. Most families in China have their own Wu Shu style, or as is referred to today, kung fu. Many traditions of Philosophy such as Buddhism, Taoism and other organisations fed the influence over the water in the Ryu Kyu islands with martial art traditions over time. There are styles that claim input such as Southern Boxing; Choi Li Fut, Pak Mai, Wing Chun, Tong Long Chuan. Traditional Japanese traditions such as the Ju Jitsu style family have influenced Wado Ryu for example. You will find movements in kata that are remnants of the Kobudo weapon schools and even older boxing and wrestling traditions long past. I hope that you can find some correlation for your study, knowing the kata will teach you many secrets too.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Have you read Patrick McCarthy's English translation of the Bubishi? Other works by this author on karate history would also certainly contain Kata or forms are like the textbooks of martial arts. The moves they contain are like formulas and bunkai is like drills or problems. One supplements and reinforces the other. Each move is a memory tool to use for visualizing the techniques but visualizing alone is not enough.

In order to practise kata efficiently it is vital to understand and feel how each technique is used in action. Knowing what one should be visualizing when practising a form is an essential step towards the development of practical skills. This can only be done by training applications and forms together. information to put you on the right track. Also a good book by Mark Bishop is a good start.From my readings I can give you some leads as such:

Heian series is called Pinan in Okinawan styles. This series is of Okinawan origin but it is based on the Kusanku(sho and dai) of Chinese origin. This is often true of the older original kata. If you want to try to look for probable sources and influences on the development of karate, research these Chinese styles: Arhat boxing, Lohan Chuan and Shaolin Long Fist. To my knowledge these are very similar to Shuri-te type karate which includes all the Shorin-ryu styles and their derivatives such as Shotokan. Exchanging and comparing with a skilled practitioner of the styles I mentioned might be very interesting. Good luck

[Wastelander]

I understand what you're trying to do, and why, but I'm afraid it's only going to lead to frustration and confusion. Many people have tried to match Okinawan kata with their Chinese origins, and they have failed to come to any sort of consensus. We do not have written records that really connect any of them, the Okinawans changed a great deal of the material they received from China, and the Okinawans developed their own fighting arts independent of Chinese influence, as well. With the exception of Sanchin, I do not know of any mainstream karate kata that has an extant Chinese counterpart--I've certainly not seen one. The Pinan kata (what you call Heian) were developed by Itosu based on Passai, Kusanku, and Chinto, so you can essentially cross 5 kata off your list straight off the bat . For what it's worth, Matsumura Sokon supposedly brought Gojushiho (called Useishi in the Okinawan language) back from a trip to Beijing.

One of the biggest problems with this type of project, is that people try to compare the appearance of the forms, themselves. The appearance of the forms change from person to person, nevermind how much they change over the course of generations. What is more important is the applications of the movements--there, you can find better links. Even so, the body only moves so many ways, so there is a great deal of cross-over. On top of that, there is a lot of misinformation out there (including from some well-respected martial artists) as to the origins of kata and techniques that just doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Basically, you're trying to put together a puzzle that is missing so many pieces, and has had so many pieces re-painted, that it can never be put back together unless somebody finds a key that tells us what all the missing pieces are, and what changes were made to the remaining pieces.

[kensei]

I write a lot about Karate history and dig deep into the written literature myself and all I have found is contradictions, fantasy and fable along with questionable historical account. Most of what we know is kind of dogma that has been created to "market" the arts to us round eyes and most of the Okinawan information I get is different than what we were brought up in the martial arts to understand as truth...and some fight to keep the Dogma so much that I end up giving up after being attacked.

The truth is that we probably will never accurately go back behind the Matsumura line of knowledge to see past that. even some of the stuff that you have is not accurate. I think you would be better off finding out WHO introduced WHAT to the Kata syllabus and not what Kung fu/Quanfa style it came from.

Its an interesting and fun exercises, but someone will shoot holes in it very quickly no matter what you come up with because most of the "noise" we get about anything pre Matsumura is junk and half the stuff we get post Matsumura is made up.

My thoughts, more looking at the lessons that the Katas teach and not their origins.

[cheesefrysamurai]

These are all solid posts - and I agree. Thousands of people have tried to make these connections. Many books have been written on the subject. There simply is no real smoking gun anywhere.

I know some senior Okinawan Sensei's went into China to research claims and stories but I'm not sure of the result.

[sensei8]

Great posts...all! A literal treasure of ideas to help you in what you're looking for!! Good luck in your search!!

I reserve to add anything to this discussion for the moment because I am waiting for your follow up post to some questions that have been asked of you??

Great topic, btw!!

[Spartacus Maximus]

From all that I can gather in what I have read on the history and development of karate a single point stands out. This is the fact that, except for a few parts it is almost impossible to be certain exactly what Chinese source karate comes from. The main reason for this is that karate is a mixed martial art.

At the time Chinese martial arts were introduced to Okinawa, schools were not as exclusive as they are today. The okinawans as well as their Chinese counterparts often trained and exchanged techniques. There were three loose categories which were a group of styles practised in a restricted area such as:

Sui di: styles practised and taught in the royal capital mostly by high ranking government people and the ruling class

Nafa di: styles of the main trade port practised by upper class merchants and wealthy tradesmen.

Tumai di: styles from around the main fishing port

Each of those categories included several Chinese Chuan fa(boxing) styles brought by the Chinese who settled there. Exactly what styles is not known and to further muddy the water, okinawans had their own native styles called Uchinaa ti which they incorporated into and mixed with the techniques from whatever Chinese styles they learned.

This blending has gon on for so long that the best clues are only similarities in a few techniques and priciples found in some Chinese styles. A single kata can have techniques from two or three Chinese styles as well as some purely Okinawan ones. This type of synthesis form also exist in the Chinese styles then and now. Kata or techniques that were passed on from china directly and can be identified as style XYZ are rare exceptions. Sometimes the Chinese parent style is lost, rare or unknown outside china; or no longer exists.That is why there is a few possible parent styles for each Okinawan style instead of a single one that can be identified without a doubt.

Karate is a bastard of unknown, or at best uncertain Chinese and Okinawan origin. It's like knowing where a person's parents are from without knowing their names or anything else about them.

[RAM18]

Awesome. Good luck in your search.

I do fear that the Heinan (Pinan) series will be almost impossible to trace as there is much discussion of them being actively altered to be easier taught to children in schools. They were created by Anko Itosu so maybe research on him might be the way to go?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ank%C5%8D_Itosu

Im sure many here have heard of Ian Abernathy. He has a brilliant article on the Heinan/Pinan Katas which may help:

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/pinan-heian-series-fighting-system-part-one

[devil dog]

Tode,

I can help you with a few of the kata but not all.

We are taught that Pinan Shodan and Nidan where created by Matsumura. This is because his grandson only studied with him and taught both of these kata's. Others say that Itosu invented all 5 Pinan or Heian kata. The origins are Okinawan.

Matsumura learned and taught one Naihanchi kata (tekki) and it is believed that Itosu created the other two from this kata. It comes from Chinese origins.

Some believe that Passai was created by Matsumura but others say it predates him.

Kusanku (Kanku dai and sho) was created by Sakugawa to honor Kusanku (his teacher).

Chinto was created by Matsumura to honor Chinto.

Seisan (Hangetsu) is of Chinese origins.

Jitte or Jutte predates Matsumura and some believe that Ji'in and Jion where created from Jitte. Of Chinese origins.

Gojushiho - predates Matsumura and was of Chinese origins.

Rohai (Meikyo) was created by Matsumura.

Sorry I can not help you with the rest. Good luck in your studies.