Bunkai and Tuite

[NewLevel]

Hey guys! It's been a while since I've been here. Good to be back.

My style is old school Chung Do Kwan TKD but we acknowledge our roots in Okinawan Karate and study basic bunkai and applications to kata. Our kata is almost identical to Shotokan but we do dabble in Okinawan Karate and Ryukyu martial arts.

I still consider myself a beginner, so I have a lot to learn.

My questions:

Is bunkai and Tuite something that is sought after to learn after reaching Black belt level? In my location, we hardly have anyone teaching bunkai or Tuite for that matter on the advanced level.

Is bunkai and Tuite something that I should seek out with other teachers or does it come naturally out of analyzing and studying kata? I know there's tons of resources like books, YouTube, etc. as well.

Thanks in advance for all the help and advice.

[Wastelander]

There will be those who disagree, but I personally believe that you do not need to wait until you have a black belt to start working bunkai and tuidi/torite (tuite is Oyata Sensei's word for it, which is a combination of the Okinawan "tuidi" and the Japanese "torite"). The bunkai (analysis) process is very helpful for students' understanding, and I feel that keeping the applications to kata secret is harmful to the development of the art. Some of the applications, including tuidi, can be difficult for a beginner to grasp, but that's because they've never done anything like it. I've seen people with decades of experience who struggle to learn tuidi techniques. Starting earlier simply means that it will get easier sooner.

You can learn some material from books and videos, if you have a partner to work it with. It isn't the most efficient way to do it, though, and is made much easier by having a solid understanding of similar material, already. If your instructor doesn't have the knowledge, it makes perfect sense to seek it out from someone who does, in order to enhance your training. Seminars and cross-training are very valuable--for a lot of it this kind of stuff, you have to feel it and have the finer points broken down for it to make sense and work for you.

[mal103]

Good question, if you have the hunger to learn then go find it.

For the average Kyu grade up to Black belt - or the level that they will quit - then there is little interest in these things and it will be a waste of time teaching them. For the more interested student then I think it should be taught from mid kyu level upwards, it's fine to call everything a block for beginners but better for the instructor to help them realise there is more to it than the student realise this on their own.

My old Sensei was happy to call everything a block and wouldn't entertain the idea of a closer range application for EVERY move in all Kata, I went to other clubs and had my eyes opened, I have since left my former club and now seek knowledge from several streams. People you should look up are:

Iain Abernethy

Patrick McCarthy

John Burke

Don't worry that these are all Karate-ka or different styles, think more of learning their ideas and principles. They have found out, researched and backward engineered plenty of Kata to teach you HOW to read them.

I learnt much more at Brown belt, some aren't bothered, some want to know from day one. Where ever you are, go and research, go and learn.

If your current Sensei/Dojo can't or won't teach you then you have to feed your own journey. If they forbid you then more reason to go!

[Harkon72]

Kata with no Bunkai or Forms with no application are nothing of the sort by definition. If you are not taught the application to a form or you are not encouraged to develop your own to what you are doing; then you are not being taught a martial art. The movements without Bunkai are just movements. I heard a one Sensei say that he never teaches Bunkai and that "Bunkai is for Gangsters." Fair enough, but in that case, he doesn't teach Karate if you ask me.

[Lupin1]

My instructor refers to bunkai as black belt studies and doesn't go really in depth with them until black belt, but he shows basic applications right from the very beginning, even for the kids.

I think there's a difference between learning one or two ways a move or sequence of moves could go down and really delving into its "hidden" potential. The former even the rawest white belt can learn from the first day they begin their first kata. The later really takes more all around understanding to get (a lot of it still goes over my head for the most part when he goes into that stuff).

[Harkon72]

You are right, there is the simple application Bunkai and a deeper study that can take years. Yet, there is nothing mystical about it. I was shown some and then encouraged to be creative in my interpretation of Kata. It is surprising what you discover, in a way, you can never be wrong. If that is what you see, fair enough. You will find that others see the same. The study of Bunkai is not separate from the style, it is the style.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Ideally kata are meant to be taught along with the use and purpose of the techniques they contain. There is no sense in waiting until shodan or any other grade to learn applications because without them kata is meaningless and useless. It is by knowing and understanding what the moves are and how they are used that one learns to perform them effectively. The best time to learn bunkai is right from the beginning.

Having said this, it is quite unfortunate that most karate dojo do not teach in this way. Somehow, somewhere along the way kata, bunkai and kumite became separate parts taught independantly or in some case not at all. It has been largely forgotten that these are all connected and were never meant to be taught separately.

[sensei8]

Don't wait to learn either!! Every aspect of Bunkai is essential for those who train in kata, however, Tuite isn't! Strange for me to type that seeing that Shindokan is deeply defendant upon Tuite...Shindokan is Tuite and Tuite is Shindokan, through and through. But not every style of the MA teaches Tuite, so, if the style of the MA that you train in teaches Tuite, then the sooner, the better!

Imho!

[bushido_man96]

Kata with no Bunkai or Forms with no application are nothing of the sort by definition. If you are not taught the application to a form or you are not encouraged to develop your own to what you are doing; then you are not being taught a martial art. The movements without Bunkai are just movements. I heard a one Sensei say that he never teaches Bunkai and that "Bunkai is for Gangsters." Fair enough, but in that case, he doesn't teach Karate if you ask me.

I would tend to disagree here. Not all styles are learned the same way. I've never been taught any kind of forms applications. Any I have played with, I've had to seek out on my own.

With that said, not all styles of TKD will have bunkai that they teach. Its going to depend on what the instructor has pulled from his own experiences and instructors, so it might be a case by case basis.

Definitely look into it, though, and don't wait for black belt level. No point in curbing what you can learn.

[Harkon72]

I'm sorry Bushidoman, I stand by every word of that post. I might be from an old tradition, it may be a culture clash but; if your style teaches no application of technique then by simple definition; IT IS NOT A MARTIAL ART.