TKD Forms; a running comparison

[bushido_man96]

I think the book you're referring to is "The Tae Geuk Cipher" by S. J. O'Neil I have no real issue with what he does in the book, but I don't think the photos are clear enough to really learn much from. My $.02.

[/b]

Yes, that's the book. I have it as well, and really enjoyed it, but you are right about the photos. Really small and that makes it tough to discern things. You really have to read the fine print! I have seen that he has a DVD out now, which might prove to be a great supplement to the book.

Can you expand on the bold Brian? (In that video would you be aiming them towards the camera rather than on the 45?).

The logic behind the 45 angle in our school would be that without changing the stance, the 45 location for the strike would be the only possible place to do it.

First the hand placement must finish in line with the person's B or chest line (where the badges are). If it is across towards the centre line or further, this creates tension in the shoulder and also restricts you because your arm is across your body. We would also say the arm cannot finish on the outside of the shoulders as it is too far away from your centre of gravity and there is no bodyweight behind the arm to reinforce it (outward moving strikes are different).

In an L-stance (or back stance), the hips naturally sit on a 45 or half facing position, to turn them to one side or the other would force tension and wouldn't be natural or relaxed. The hips then dictate where the torso points and the hand placement is bound by that.

So with the hand position fixed, add in the stance too and on the 45 degree is the only place hand can logically finish for us.

I'll try to expand, but its pretty much the way it sounds. When I teach, I try to emphasize keeping the back stance (or L stance) base in tact, and turning the hips as far forward facing as possible. I know it sounds odd, and it feels that way at first. We also do this with the three reverse punches in Hwa Rang from the back stances.

Doing it this way, I feel that I can really generate power from him hips into the strike by turning them forward facing. The main problem I see is when teaching is the one you mention; its more natural for the back stance to have the body at a 45 degree angle, and striking at that angle. But, we end up with bodies at a 45, and the strike going to the front, and its really short. So, I spend time fixing this.

I noticed this discrepancy when I first got General Choi's encyclopedia set, and when I saw the pictures and the descriptions, they really made a lot of sense to me. I hope that helps. Why we do it that way, I'm not sure. I'm guessing because of the power from the hip twist, which our GM is really big on.

[bushido_man96]

Alrighty, I believe we are ready for 4th gup forms.....

ATA Purple Belt form, In Wha 1:

44 moves, and this time, the form traces two squares next to each other on the floor. This is the first form the ATA student sees the "square block" or "double block" as it is called in our school. Instead of chambering both hands at the hip, like I do now, it is a crossed-arm chamber, which I like better, as I think the applications for it are better. Knife hand blocks, elbow strikes, and also a scissor type of double block, low/inner forearm block is added. Vertical punches are also included.

Also of note are the kicking additions. Inner and outer crescent kicks are added, and we also see a "consecutive kick" combination, a back leg front kick that is rechambered and then a side kick is executed to the 90 degree side. The kicking leg remains in the air.

This is a tough form, indicative of what GM Lee thought the skills of the intermediate ranks in the ATA should be.

TTA 4th gup, Yul Gok Hyung:

I call it 37 moves total. In this form, we see the square blocks again, but open handed this time. Elbow strikes are also added into this form, after the bending ready stance and side kick (which we touched on earlier). The form also starts with some slow punches, which we do at about a 3 second count, with tension. We also replace the hooking blocks with knife hand blocks, and we do them at a 3 second count with tension as well. We also see the popular double punching after a front kick. Finally, we have what I like to call the "power back fist" towards the end of the form, where the student bursts forward into a cross leg stance and strikes. We kihap on this move.

I have always liked this form, as it always felt really powerful for me. I also like the challenge that the turning to block in a bending ready stance, then side kick, then rechamber to land in the elbow strike. I like the power in this segment, and it forces the student concentrate on their core and balance while executing powerful techniques. When we do this form by count, we don't make the students hold the bending ready stance as a count; they go right into the kick. When we get to Choong Moo, we have them hold the stance as a count.

Palgwe 6:

29 moves. What I notice is some front foot shifting from one stance to another. Not every move is done with an advance. This helps develop power in a different way, I think. I also see a knife hand high block/palm strike double move. I also see the "power back fist" in this form, and the familiar wedging style block, followed by back leg front kick, then double punch. I also see an interesting combination where there is a back leg front kick, followed by a high block, then a shift of stance before a back leg side kick.

Taeguek 6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcYNB-tJ3fc

31 moves. We see the palm blocks again, in retreat this time, along with general backing up in stances, too. At the beginning, we see an advance to a front stance, a back leg front kick, and then sat down behind into a different stance, the back stance, followed by an outside block. Also new appear to be the reverse hand blocks, in this case knife hand blocks, and we also see the round kick added into the form. Also of note is the slow, deliberate ready stance performed in what appears to be the middle of the form, in a tension movement. After the palm blocks is an immediate reverse punch, a good application.

[IcemanSK]

Tae Guek 6 (Yuk Jang) is a great form with which to test a student's abilities. When I took the Kukkiwon Foreign Instructor's Course the instructors of the course said to us, "a good student does this poomsae well." When it came time for our physical skill test they wanted to see us each to this poomsae and Keumgang (2nd Dan form). It was then they said, "You can judge anyone's Taekwondo by how they perform these two poomsae." In the 5 years since I took the Course I've been able to see the wisdom in that statement (when it comes to Kukki-TKD folks, anyway.) TG #6 shows balance, power, speed and control in it's movements. It also puts a harsh light on students who do not have those abilities.

Pal Gwe #6 was the first of three Pal Gwe forms I did as a gup student. As I look at it now, I see how much more complex it is than Tae Guek #6 is. The TG poomsae have a familiar pattern to them, while the Pal Gwe do not share any particular pattern or theme past the first bar.

It's amazing to me that the same group of men (two more gentlemen added to help with the TG set) came up with such different poomsae. The meanings behind each set are identical, however. They are each based on the 8 Pal Gwe divination signs: Heaven and light, Joy, Fire and Sun, Thunder, Wind, Water, Mountain, Earth. So both TG #1 & PG #1 mean Heaven and Light, etc.

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for sharing that, Iceman. Very cool underlinings in these forms sets. I've been reading a new book called Taekwondo Poomsae, The Fighting Scrolls, and he discusses various points of the underlying philosophy of Palgwe, how the opposites add up to nine, the Um/Yang relationships, etc. The book is kind of chunky at times, but I've been picking up some of the ideas on it.

I have found a few books in my own library that can help me along with this thread now, too. My old ATA manual lists the nuances of each new rank, and I have Kyu Hyung Lee and Sang H. Kim's Complete Taekwondo Poomsae at my disposal, as well. I also plan to use these resources to learn the Palgwe and Taeguek forms.

[bushido_man96]

3rd Gup forms:

ATA blue belt form, In Wha 2:

This form has 42 moves. We can see that this form picks up where purple belt form left off in complexity, especially with more consecutive kicking, or what I like to refer to as repeat kicking. We see a hook kick/round kick repeat kick, along with a stepping hook kick. We also see a side kick/stepping hook kick combination, and the side kick starts from a closed stance. We also see a jumping front kick in which the jump is from both feet at the same time. New blocking techniques include X-blocking low, a knife hand hi/low block, and a knife hand square block. For striking, we see an upset knife hand strike, a twin upset punch, and upward elbow strikes. We also see the head grab/knee strike technique.

I remember doing this form when I was in the ATA, an I liked the complexity of it, but liked that the repeat kicking was easier for me than in purple belt. Again, we see the increase in difficulty in comparison to lower ranked forms, and those of the other form sets we are evaluating here.

Jun Goon hyung: here is one version:

and one, ITF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS4YuKNGe8g

The first is closer to how I do the form, but with some differences. 32 moves in this form. We see palm pressing blocks, upward elbow strikes, an upward palm block in a rear stance (we do it in a back stance, though), and an upset ridge hand block. Double forearm blocks also make an appearance in this form, along with punching with the front hand from a back stance. Also, the back fist is shown here, with a release technique prior to the strike with some nice applications possible. We also see the new circle punch toward the end, along with the U-shaped open hand strikes. I always found the middle section of the form, starting from the double forearm block, going through the side kicks, and finishing in the double forearm guarding blocks, to be particularly challenging, with the way the footwork lines up and controlling the rechamber and set down after kicking.

Palgwe 7 (Chil Jang):

The book says 23 moves, but I count more like 29 moves, but that's counting each individual technique. New moves include a low section opening block done in a slow, controlled movement. Also, low and hi section cross blocks (or X-blocks), a single mountain block (which I would call a hi/low block), and a "target kick," which is an inner crescent kick that connects to the palm of the outstretched hand. When I used to watch the form Yoo Sin, I used to think I would love doing that kick. I despise it...but maybe that was due to the consecutive side kick that followed. I see more hand technique combinations that are done without a step forward or back, but more in a shifting in a stance, or into a different stance, which I think is great for developing power in one place, and also demonstrates that in self-defense, you may not have the room to move that you would like, and have to develop power and combinations that remain in place. I also see a low X-block with fists followed by hi open-hand X-block, and then the hands rotate over, showing the application of grab and pull to strike. I've only done this in our 3rd degree from, Yoo Sin, and I think it is a tactic that should be introduced earlier. The last few moves of the form show some interesting turning, and also doing techniques facing forward while the stances retreat in a shuffle-step manner. I like to see it this way, because although I don't like to teach retreating, if you have to, its better to shuffle-step than to cross legs while moving backwards. Overall, I really like what I see out of this form, and can't wait to spend some time on it.

Taeguek 7 (Chil Jang): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9tx9bls8TA

The book says 25 moves, but I count roughly 33 techniques. We see new stances in tiger stance (or what I call a rear stance, or cat stance), and close stance, with feet together, and the horse stance (sitting or middle stance). For blocks, we have the double knife hand low block, augmented (or what I would call reinforced) inward palm heel block, opening (or wedging) block, scissors blocks, low cross block (X), and single knife hand side block. New strikes include outward back fist strike, side punch from the horse stance, and the double uppercut (or twin upset punch). We also see the head grab/knee strike, the "covered fist" in the closed stance (much like a ready position), and our friend, the "target kick."

In the form itself, we see more of the hand technique, back leg kick, then land back into a stance without advancing and doing another hand technique, and use of the tiger stance with this, which shows some close-in applications. I also see interesting single hand combinations, which I would love to explore more of. It appears that the tension spot in the middle of the form shows up again, this time in the closed ready stance with covered fist. Also interesting is the wedging block, knee strike, upset punches in the X-stance, then stepping back to the low X-block. A very interesting section of the form. We don't see any of the retreating steps we saw in Palgwe 7.

Overall, I like the nuances of the palgwe and taeguek forms, especially these later ones. I can't wait to get some time in on them.

[IcemanSK]

In both Pal Gwe & Tae Guek Pal Jang there are several combinations of techniques. That's why there more techniques than the book counts. Several combinations are counted as one. One's balance is tested quite a bit in Tae Guek Pal Jang from the opening bar. Cat/Tiger stance with a rear leg front, slide back into the same stance with an inside block. This is a good poomsae of both grace and power.

"The Complete TKD Poomsae" book by LEE & KIM I'm sure is good. GM LEE is an amazing man, and the former head of Kukkiwon. He LOVES poomsae. GM Sang H. KIM also put out a DVD of Pal GWE poomsae that is an excellent learning/teaching tool under his Turtle Press publishing company. Look for it on Amazon, if interested.

[truejim]

One's balance is tested quite a bit in Tae Guek Pal Jang from the opening bar. Cat/Tiger stance with a rear leg front, slide back into the same stance with an inside block. This is a good poomsae of both grace and power.

I like the Tiger stance in Taegeuk Chil Jang too, but that's because of the story our instructor told us about it. He said that in Korea, tigers are thought of as being mountain animals. Since the trigram for this form is "Gan" (mountain), the Tiger Stance was put in Chil Jang. Even the instructor said that may not actually be why it's in there, but it's what people in Korea like to say.

"The Complete TKD Poomsae" book by LEE & KIM I'm sure is good. GM LEE is an amazing man, and the former head of Kukkiwon. He LOVES poomsae. GM Sang H. KIM also put out a DVD of Pal GWE poomsae that is an excellent learning/teaching tool under his Turtle Press publishing company. Look for it on Amazon, if interested.

Lee & Kim's poomsae books are - in my opinion - the best English-language books for learning forms. Since Lee stepped down as the head of the Kukkiwon, I believe he's now associated with the Taekwondowon...at least, he shows up in their promotional videos.

[IcemanSK]

I'm not sure where my head was at. I meant to reference TG Chil Jang in my comments, not Pal Jang, as I did. In my mind I was talking about TG 7 (Chil Jang). Forgive me. Too many kicks to the head.

I might need to pick up a copy of GMs LEE & Kims book.

[bushido_man96]

I might need to pick up a copy of GMs LEE & Kims book.

Lee & Kim's poomsae books are - in my opinion - the best English-language books for learning forms. Since Lee stepped down as the head of the Kukkiwon, I believe he's now associated with the Taekwondowon...at least, he shows up in their promotional videos.

It is a good resource. I've got several other of Sang H. Kim's books, as well, and he does a good job with his works.

I've also turned to referencing Richard Chun's books, Taekwondo and Advancing in Taekwondo. Also very good resources, and I like some of the move terminology a bit better in his books.

(In that video would you be aiming them towards the camera rather than on the 45?).

The logic behind the 45 angle in our school would be that without changing the stance, the 45 location for the strike would be the only possible place to do it.

First the hand placement must finish in line with the person's B or chest line (where the badges are). If it is across towards the centre line or further, this creates tension in the shoulder and also restricts you because your arm is across your body. We would also say the arm cannot finish on the outside of the shoulders as it is too far away from your centre of gravity and there is no bodyweight behind the arm to reinforce it (outward moving strikes are different).

In an L-stance (or back stance), the hips naturally sit on a 45 or half facing position, to turn them to one side or the other would force tension and wouldn't be natural or relaxed. The hips then dictate where the torso points and the hand placement is bound by that.

So with the hand position fixed, add in the stance too and on the 45 degree is the only place hand can logically finish for us.

Danielle, here is another version of Won Hyo that I found where the practitioner does the upset knife hand strikes the way we do it in our school:

Keep in mind, we don't do the entire form the way he does it, but the targeting of the knife hand strikes in the back stance is how we target ours. That should give you a visual of what I mentioned.

[bushido_man96]

Ok, by my count, we are ready for 2nd gup material, which brings us closer to the black belt levels, where I think things will really become interesting in regards to what forms my school does at those ranks....but, for now, 2nd gup.

ATA brown belt form, Choong Jung 1:

44 moves. We see the rear stance (or tiger or cat stance) for the first time in an ATA form. New blocks are palm upset block, a side hi/low knife hand block, hi X-block, low double outer forearm block (or guarding blocks), an upset ridge hand strike, and a palm heel strike. For new kicks in the form, we see a jumping side kick (#1 jump side kick in ATA vernacular), a #3 jump outside crescent kick, and we also see another repeat kick, front/round kick combination.

This is a challenging form, with combinations of moves done in a closed stance with hand techniques, and we see some kicking that is done to the rear, which can make for an awkward transition. Slow blocking is done with the knife hand hi/low blocks and slow striking with the reverse punches.

TTA 2nd gup, middle brown belt form, Toi Gye:

37 moves. We see the low double guarding blocks in both fist and knife hand form, and the scooping blocks done at the end of the form, but we don't bend down low to perform them. Another new block is the W-shaped blocks (we call them mountain blocks), and we actually try to swing the leg up a bit higher, like a stretching inside crescent kick, as we perform the body twist and the stomp into the block. We see the head grab/knee strike combo, a horizontal spear hand strike, and an upset spear hand strike to the low section. This technique is done with the opposite hand pulled back to the chest/patch area, like the upset knife hand strikes in Won Hyo. There is also a combination hi/low back fist low block technique. There is also a jump into a low, squatting X-block in a cross leg stance that presents a particular challenge to me.

This form is tough with the mountain blocks and the jumping X-block to the low section. We start the W-shaped blocks from the forward position in the form, not turning to the side as the one shown does. It makes for a bit tougher of a transition, but allows for good hip twist and power into the stomp. The last three scooping blocks we do without the dipping motion, but we do the shifting of the feet to make stance face one direction and then the other, putting power into the blocks. The front leg front snap kicks also present a challenge in trying to get them up high.

Pal Gwe 8 (Pal Jang):

I count around 38 moves in this form, and some are very interesting moves. It appears there are several releases in this form, stepping out to the side stance to release before stepping back in to elbow strike. Also, the turning releases we've seen from earlier forms. New stances are the L-stance and close stance in ready position with hands overlapping, which could be another form of release. There is also the elbows out escape posture. I think I shall unofficially call this the "release" form. Lots of little complexities to explore when its time to learn this form. For strikes, there are downward hammer fist with the step back/pull back, lateral and rear elbow strikes, rear punch with an elbow strike, which I don't see until Yoo Sin hyung in style, an outward knife hand strike and an inward knife hand block. There is an outward back fist strike and what is called a hinge block, which I would call a hand-at-hips type of release, although the top hand doesn't rest right at the hip. We also see the twin upset punches.

The hinge block I notice comes before side kicks, which would lead me to believe you have seized the opponent, and are pulling them into your side kick. A very interesting form, and one I look forward to experimenting with.

Tae Guek 8 (Pal Jang): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVdl68HPaHQ

I count 39 techniques. New stance is front cross stance. New blocks are double outer forearm blocks, low and mid section (guarding blocks). There is also what they call a single mountain block, a low/middle block technique.

There is a tricky double jumping front kick done twice in this form, which looks like a nice challenge. The upset punch to the face is done with a pulling fist, and in a slow motion. There is a section that starts off double knife hand block in cat stance, front leg front kick, then land forward into front stance and punch, followed by a slip of the front foot back to cat stance and a palm block downwards. A very tight offensive and defensive combination that stays in place. We see a few more combinations like this, too, with several hand techniques coming without much stance transition, forcing the student to develop power in one spot, using smaller stance transitions and less full forward stepping.

I have to say, my journey into the Taegueks and Palgwes through this thread has been very enlightening. I used to think that the walking stance of the Taegueks was pretty silly and rather lazy, but I've come to see some of the value in training techniques from that position. I've put some time in learning Palgwe 1, and will be learning Taeguek 1 shortly.

And don't worry, this thread is far from being completed!