TKD Forms; a running comparison

[bushido_man96]

Great topic idea Brian

So I am only really familiar with the Chang Hon / ITF set, though I have seen the other forms in the past. Rather than comment on how the moves are performed, I'll stick with the content:

I like the development of the blocking and turning in Chon Ji, but don't care for the lack of kicks. The ATA form introduces two kicks into their first form. ATA lacks sine wave, and although I do Chon Ji now, I don't use sine wave.

I like Chon Ji being about as simple as you can get. For beginners with sub-6 month training I think it's a nice basis for learning forms as you can take away 2 stances, 2 blocks and 1 attack from it. Maybe you could have introduced a front kick but I probably wouldn't have included a high kick like is seen in Songham 1. That is a little too much I think for people you are just introducing to balance and using their feet for things other than walking and running. But then again I'm a stickler for being technically correct right from the start.

The front kick and side kick in Songham 1 don't have to be high section. Most black belts that demonstrate it, though, will likely be doing high kicks.

Pal Gwe1 I feel is quite similar to Chon Ji... though maybe a halfway house between it and the next pattern Dan Gun. As a beginner form I quite like it and I think the mechanics taught (inward block and inward knifehand) are reasonably simple and similar that they would be easy to pick up.

Both are very similar to

and

. Not surprising since Taekwondo has a very strong grounding in Shotokan and other styles of Karate.

I agree. Interestingly enough, we have an "extra form" called Bo Chung that we do at high orange belt level, and it looks a lot like Taikyoku Shodan. The only difference is that after the first three punches, we turn into back stance and middle block, followed by back leg front kick, land in front stance and punch with the right hand, then repeat to the other side. I will keep that clip handy for that segment...

Songham 1 seems to be more complicated to me and not necessarily what I would offer to a beginner straight off. Side kicks in particular are awkward movements that aren't really natural to pick up and I think teaching this kick to a beginner plus teaching them a high front kick when they most likely are just developing their flexibility isn't a priority. FWIW in ITF, side kicks don't appear until green belt / 6th kup. It also contains a greater variety of stances, attacks and defenses than the other two.

I agree that the side kick is awkward. However, I do like the idea of teaching it before a round kick, that way the student doesn't try to cheat by doing a round kick. But even then, with Songham 1, you have two stances (front and middle stances), two strikes (knife hand strike and punch), and two kicks (front kick and side kick). So, it stays pretty basic.

Interestingly though, all 3 follow the cross-shaped (+) diagram on the floor and go up-down and across the room rather than splitting off on different angles and following more complicated footwork.

Yes, very simple footwork, very basic.

[bushido_man96]

I'm a yellow stripe in ITF, and i'm currently working on learning Chon Ji and Dan Gun. I haven't been told to do the forms with sine wave. My grandmaster is Jong Soo Park, student of General Choi if that helps.

anyways, yeah good stuff

The sine wave didn't always exist, so some of General Choi's early students didn't experience it. I'm not sure when it really took off, but there is some literature out there that talks a lot about it, and how there were different levels of the sine wave throughout the evolution of TKD.

[IcemanSK]

A point of interest, for some. The designers of the Pal Gwe and the Tae Guek poomsae were basically the same men. There were two men added when they designed the Tae Guek poomsae. My instructor's instructor (GM PARK Hae Man) is one of the designers of both sets of poomsae. The two sets of poomsae are quite different from one another, yet created by the same people within ten years of each other.

[bushido_man96]

Ok, lets move to the orange belt group. In my current association, the TTA, we have two of each colored belt rank until brown, so we have low orange and hi orange.

We will refer to it as 8th gup here, as well.

ATA orange belt form, Songham 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdsWJLOI8hU&index=1&list=PL82A89568D2E49FDC

This form has 23 moves, and the form moves along the floor in the shape of a rectangle. It adds a new kicking technique, the round kick, the back stance, the double forearm block, the outer forearm block, and a twin low block. Considerably more turns, as well.

TTA lo orange belt form, Dan Gun:

21 moves, the back stance, double knife hand blocks, and the "square block" as I would call it. We do the square block from the hips, without the crossing motion, but in the ATA, that block was done in much later forms, with the crossed arms chamber motion.

Here's a version with a bit less bounce, but still something different with the hand techniques:

Pal Gwe 2:

26 moves, and adds the front kick, along with some other double blocking. There is also a section through the middle that does not repeat.

And, I forgot about the Tae Gueks! I will go edit my first post to include Tae Guek 1.

Tae Guek 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSzJwkLpRzY

23 moves. Mostly walking stances, lots of inside blocks, and front kicks.

Edited February 12, 2015 by bushido_man96

[Harkon72]

They are good forms, similar to the Pinan or Heian Kata. What surprises me is how many people on Youtube claim to be "Grandmasters" in TKD. I looked on the right, the list has at least 4 or 5 of these guys with this title. In Karate, "Grandmaster" or "Soke" is hardly ever used to describe someone. They would probably be he founder of the style. Each to their own I suppose, but I assume "Dai Soke" means someone of transcended grace.

[IcemanSK]

At first glance, the many walking stances in the first two Tae Guek poomsae might be so to aid the student in focusing more on blocks than the stances. In actuality, they are intended to teach the beginning student to generate power from the hips & legs, rather than from a front stance. Throwing a reverse inside block with power from a walking stance takes a lot more effort than from a front stance.

[DWx]

I'm a yellow stripe in ITF, and i'm currently working on learning Chon Ji and Dan Gun. I haven't been told to do the forms with sine wave. My grandmaster is Jong Soo Park, student of General Choi if that helps.

anyways, yeah good stuff

I think you probably would be taught it.... Maybe you haven't overtly been introduced to it yet but GM Park has always been ITF-style. My instructor trained with GM Park Jong Soo a number of years ago and he did it then. I think he was also Technical Director for the ITF for some time (?) though I think he's independent now.

[bushido_man96]

A point of interest, for some. The designers of the Pal Gwe and the Tae Guek poomsae were basically the same men. There were two men added when they designed the Tae Guek poomsae. My instructor's instructor (GM PARK Hae Man) is one of the designers of both sets of poomsae. The two sets of poomsae are quite different from one another, yet created by the same people within ten years of each other.

I had also heard that some of the designers of these two sets of forms also had a hand in the designs of some of the Chang On forms, but I can't recall who it was.

At first glance, the many walking stances in the first two Tae Guek poomsae might be so to aid the student in focusing more on blocks than the stances. In actuality, they are intended to teach the beginning student to generate power from the hips & legs, rather than from a front stance. Throwing a reverse inside block with power from a walking stance takes a lot more effort than from a front stance.

This, I did not realize. I thought the main reason behind the implementation of the walking stance was to help train the higher, more upright stance seen in Olympic sparring. Thanks for the info here, Iceman.

[IcemanSK]

This is not original to me. It was written by Master Peter Miles (7th Dan Chung Do Kwan, 6th Dan Kukkiwon, if I'm not mistaken) on the Tae Guek poomsae. In it is the list of gentlemen who designed the Tae Guek poomsae. Perhaps, some of those names are the familiar to Chan Hon practitioners.

During the 1950's Korean martial artists were primarily performing Okinawan and Chinese forms. With the efforts to unify the various Kwans came an effort to standardize the material taught. To this end, the Korea Taekwondo Association had representatives from the various Kwans become members of the Poomsae Committee.

The task of the Poomsae Committee was to create uniquely Korean Taekwondo poomsae. The members of the Committee and their Kwan affiliation were:

1) KWAK Kun Sik (Chung Do Kwan)

2) LEE Yong Sup (Song Moo Kwan)

3) PARK Hae Man (Chung Do Kwan)

4) HYUN Jong Myung (Oh Do Kwan)

5) KIM Soon Bae (Chang Moo Kwan)

These original members created the Palgwae poomsae and the Yudanja poomsae (Koryo through Ilyo). It is important to emphasize that the Oh Do Kwan, which were using the Chon Ji forms created by Gen. Choi, participated in the creation of the new KTA poomsae, and thus were an active part of the unification process. The Oh Do Kwan member who participated was GM HYUN Jong Myung, the Oh Do Kwan Jang at the time.

The Palgwae poomsae were the first uniquely Korean Taekwondo poomsae. Unfortunately, they were created without the input of two of the original Kwans: the Jidokwan and the Moo Duk Kwan. The reason for this is that the Kwan Jangs of these Kwans: Dr. YOON, Kwe Byung and GM HWANG, Kee, respectively, had left the Korea Taekwondo Association and had a rival organization, the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association.

Several years later, a majority of Jidokwan (under the leadership of GM LEE, chong Woo) and Moo Duk Kwan (lead by GM HONG, Chong Soo) members rejoined the Korea Taekwondo Association. At that time, it was felt that the input of these Kwans should be included, and new poomsae, the Tae Guek series was created. The additional members from the Jidokwan and Moo Duk Kwan were:

6) LEE Chong Woo (Jidokwan)

7) BAE Young Ki (Jidokwan)

HAN Yong Tae (Moo Duk Kwan)

(Names and Kwan affiliation of Poomsae Committee members comes to me courtesy of my friend and senior Glenn U. from his many conversations with Kwan founders and pioneers).

Background. In order to discuss the philosophical context of the Taeguek series, it might be a good idea to look at what "Tae" "Guek" means. "Tae" means "largeness" and "Guek" means "eternity." Together the thought behind "Taeguek" represents the creation of the universe. The symbol for Taeguek is the familiar red/blue yin/uhm (negative) and yang (positive). The circle of the Taeguek symbolizes infinity-no beginning or end. Around the outside of the Taeguek are 8 "gwes" or "Palgwe".

Each of these "gwe" consist of various combinations of three solid (yang) or broken (uhm) bars. From the 12 O'clock position and moving clockwise, the order of the Palgwe is as follows: "keon", "seon", "kam", "kan", "kon", "jin", "ri", and

"tae." For those who are not familiar with what the Palgwe symbols look like, you can see them here:

http://fisks.com/tkd/taeguek_poomse.html

Philosophy:

Taeguek 1 represents "keon" which is heaven-that which is great and original-it is the first poomsae so it is easy to learn. Since it has 3 solid bars, it is all "yang" or positive.

Taeguek 2 represents "tae" which is strength of mind-gentle or soft on the outside, firm of intention on the inside.

Taeguek 3 represents "ri" which is sun or fire or light. It is hot and bright like one's passion for training. It is the last of the beginner poomsae.

Taeguek 4 represents "jin" which is thunder. It is loud and strong but disappears and brings forth freshness. This poomsae is for intermediate students-those who have trained long enough to have a grasp of basic techniques but desirous of new challenges. One of the challenges of this poomsae is the introduction of returing the kicking leg to its original position.

Taeguek 5 represents "seon" or wind. Wind can be refreshing like a gentle breeze or overwhelming like Hurrican Rita. Like a gathering storm, Taeguek 5 starts out with easy motions and builds up to a crescendo with the front kick/stomp and backfist combination at the end.

Taeguek 6 represents "gam" or water. Water can form to fit any container yet can also be dangerous. Like water, this poomsae has both fluid and strong motions such as the ending combination of pushing blocks and reverse punches.

Taeguek 7 represents "kan" or mountain. A mountain is majestic and can be either tranquil or angry.This is an advanced poomsae and the majesty of the covering fist (ITF stylists begin "Won Hyo" in this position) pause followed by the scissors block is an example.

Taeguek 8 represents "kon" or earth-the opposite of heaven so it consists of 3 broken sets of bars (all yin-negative). The earth is firm, rooted, like those ready to test for black belt who are grounded in their knowledge and like earth, ready to spring forth with new knowledge.

Technical Aspects:

The first 3 poomsae are for beginners. They are characterized by simple, straightforward moves such as walking stances, low blocks, middle and upper section punches. The only kicking technique is a front kick, again, the most basic of the kicks.

Nevertheless, they increase in level of difficulty from 1 through 3. For example, in Taeguek 1, the 5th motion is a low block in front stance followed immediately by a reverse punch. In Taeguek 3, there is a middle section knife hand block in a back stance followed immediately by a stance change before the middle section punch.

The second set of 3 (i.e. Taeguek 4-6) are intermediate poomsae. These poomsae introduce increasingly difficult techniques. For example, Taeguek 4 introduces double knife hand block, spear hand strike with push block, simultaneous knife hand block and neck strike, consecutive side kicks, and body-weight concepts (i.e. returning kicking leg to original stance, use of forward momentum from front kick in subsequent front back fist strike).

The final 2 poomsae in the Taeguek series, Taeguek 7 & 8 are advanced poomsae. They have a different feel and flow than the earlier 6 poomsae. In fact, Taeguek 7 has what I perceive to be an almost "kung-fu-like" feel with soft palm blocks, body-weight shifting 180 degrees in tiger stances, and inside crescent kicks to open hand targets. Taeguek 8 likewise diffentiates between kicking combinations moving forward and those which are stationary. It also introduces in the final half a sliding stepping motion not seen in any of the earlier poomsae.

What is fascinating about the Taeguek series is that the footwork matches the respective Palgwe symbol. So, if one were to do Taeguek 4 for instance in the sand, from overhead, the sand would be marked with the Palgwe symbol "ri." Clearly there was a great deal of thought put into the series.

[OneAndOnly]

I think you probably would be taught it.... Maybe you haven't overtly been introduced to it yet but GM Park has always been ITF-style. My instructor trained with GM Park Jong Soo a number of years ago and he did it then. I think he was also Technical Director for the ITF for some time (?) though I think he's independent now.

yeah we do sine wave when we do our punches. But while doing my forms, neither the black belts or GM Park have corrected me and told me to make sure to do it.